VAR (PL introduction 2019)

[tonea2003]

Him amongst others. I've said this plenty of times as an outsider as I'm not English. How on earth do you expect your players to understand how to play at international level when they play under different rules domestically? How do you expect your young players to develop a big game mentality and perform under pressure when they're allowed to behave like petulant and at times violent 10 year olds week in, week out?

Sergio Ramos is a great example, been highly rated in Spain since he was about 14. Plays for the biggest Spanish club and is a mainstay in the national team and a Spanish sporting hero. Holds the La Liga record for red cards.

different rules? which are different? are we talking the application?

 

[aguero93:20]

different rules? which are different? are we talking the application?

Yes, application. The application that frequently sees certain players get into double figures for fouls before being booked, that sees 'tackles' that are straight reds anywhere else in the world become yellows, that sees certain players follow the referee around complaining and abusing them for 90 minutes, that sees consistent divers consistently rewarded, do I need to go on?

Think they call it "game management" or something these days.

 

[tonea2003]

Yes, application. The application that frequently sees certain players get into double figures for fouls before being booked, that sees 'tackles' that are straight reds anywhere else in the world become yellows, that sees certain players follow the referee around complaining and abusing them for 90 minutes, that sees consistent divers consistently rewarded, do I need to go on?

Think they call it "game management" or something these days.

is there a specific directive we know about "game management" because to my eyes there is no consistency which is the real issue. some games you are left wondering how a card hasn't been given up to a certain point and others where virtually the first tackle gets a yellow.

if var allows us eventually to get consistency and the correct decisions, its got to be a good thing

 

[aguero93:20]

is there a specific directive we know about "game management" because to my eyes there is no consistency which is the real issue. some games you are left wondering how a card hasn't been given up to a certain point and others where virtually the first tackle gets a yellow.

if var allows us eventually to get consistency and the correct decisions, its got to be a good thing

There's plenty of consistency if you know which parameters to set.

Agree with the second paragraph. It needs refined and improved but it's for the better overall.

 

[SilverFox2]

is there a specific directive we know about "game management" because to my eyes there is no consistency which is the real issue. some games you are left wondering how a card hasn't been given up to a certain point and others where virtually the first tackle gets a yellow.

if var allows us eventually to get consistency and the correct decisions, its got to be a good thing

Yes I think anything that eliminates either human error or bias within a ref is a good thing.
In fact during change period surely more delays the better for change that is because it highlights just how much their interpretation of the rules has strayed from the actual rule book itself.
Presumably they will then get a consistent opinion of events and the number of delays will decrease.

 

[tonea2003]

There's plenty of consistency if you know which parameters to set.

Agree with the second paragraph. It needs refined and improved but it's for the better overall.

surely the parameters are the laws? just apply them.
it might take a game or two that reduces the game to 9 v 8 or something by applying the laws as stated.
i'm all for contact in the game but within the laws.
to let things go early on to then apply them later on is just plain ridiculous.

 

[Silva2021]

It’s easy to see that club loyalty will cloud judgement of the VAR decisions. Unlike the goal line technology which was overdue and leaves nothing open to debate. This has peoples views blurred depending who it benefits.

For my view I think he got the first one right and probably the second although I think it was quite fortunate and opens a different question.

The first he was offside the blocking/ pushing I think is around 50/50, I wouldn’t expect a penalty but likewise I don’t think a goal should be disallowed for blocking but yes offside. Ironically if he had pushed him further the goal might have stood.

On the second Livermore did pull him back, regardless of whether Salah would have got there makes it any less of a foul. However he did go down easier then needed and in the past it would have been difficult to spot and in a lot of ways it use to benefit players who where strong and honest who would have tried to carry on, now it will benefit the ones who hit the deck regardless on whether the contact causes that.

The ref last night I thought handled the 2 well. The first goal the decision was taken from him. The second he did not want to give in my view (either because WBA had just had one go against them, or it highlighted he would have made 2 mistakes), so he viewed it himself and made sure he was happy on the decision.

Side point - I’m sure there are many others as well but Vidic would suffer based on this rule, half his game was knowing when to hold a player and when to let go as to not be caught.

 

[aguero93:20]

surely the parameters are the laws? just apply them.
it might take a game or two that reduces the game to 9 v 8 or something by applying the laws as stated.
i'm all for contact in the game but within the laws.
to let things go early on to then apply them later on is just plain ridiculous.

Agree with what you've said totally, but right now we have a game where it took Dembele 9 bad enough fouls to be booked last week, where Alli gets away with murder on a weekly basis and where a Yeovil player was booked after 24 seconds on Friday for charging down a clearance.
If England ever want to win anything at international level again, the domestic game needs to evolve to the point where kicking people and 5 minute goal kicks aren't seen as tactical brilliance. Where any pundit suggesting a team should foul the opponent as much as possible has just made their last TV appearance and to where young English players are not only held to the same standards as everyone else but expected to lead by example.

I read an interview on the Aymeric Laporte thread yesterday where he's 20 years old and talking about marking systems, positioning, video analysis and tactics. Athletic are on an equivalent level with Everton. Mason Holgate is probably getting coached on "hitting row Z, letting him know you're there and attacking the man not the ball at set pieces".

 

[SilverFox2]

Seems that a certain amount of shirt holding or deliberate obstruction is being allowed by refs in the penalty areas.

Have often wondered whether the penalty area should be the same for both sides and any deliberate defensive or offensive foul in any sides area should have the same result.
Currently attackers risk only a free kick against for an offence whereas defenders risk everything.

Would attackers be so physical if they also risked a penalty for ignoring the rule book ?
Similarly diving may have fewer occurances if a ref and var result in a penalty against the attacker.

Not realistic I suppose but if the risks are equal in either penalty area perhaps the refs would have less to do.

 

[Bozo]

Only just seen the highlights of Liverpool v West Brom, what a ridiculous game. Would hate for VAR to play that much of a part in a City game. Score a goal, but wait for it to be confirmed first...

 

[BlueAnorak]

Decisions need to be made more quickly than they currently are and the referee and VAR official decisions need to be replayed inside the ground. Offside decisions should only be changed if the decision is clearly wrong - I.e. space between the players. Yesterday's decusion for the offside was far too marginal for me to be changed.
The diving decision in the Chelsea v Norwich game will still give refs the capability to cheat.
The former can be got round by use of good video Techngology giving the ability to show all angles by the operator winding back to a point in time. The later depends on who the ref wants to win.

 

[moon]

How long was the game stopped for the VAR for Salah pen.
Heard it was 4 minutes

There was only 4 minutes added on at the end of the first half

At the time the board went out
West Brom had 2 injuries where subs were made
3 goals has been scored
And the VAR had also been used to disallow the goal

 

[Neville Kneville]

Every decision is. But if you read the rules on offside and pulling back both calls were correct.

I do agree on the ref going to a screen. They should empower the guy watching remotely to make a decision like they do in rugby and cricket. He has all the technology to help him. That should stop the players crowding around the ref too,

We keep getting told that the calls were correct.

The pullback for which Salah was awarded a penalty, before the ball was even played in, didn't cause him to miss the ball or, fall to the floor, he dived & the ball was played into a 'dead' area.

How is this different, from routine pushing & shoving, at set pieces ?

If it is fair as a penalty, why is the quite blatant push on Gareth Barry, by Liverpool's goalkeeper, not a penalty ?

Why am I expected to accept this as being 100% correct & a vindication of this system ?

 

[Bluearmy]

Only just seen the highlights of Liverpool v West Brom, what a ridiculous game. Would hate for VAR to play that much of a part in a City game. Score a goal, but wait for it to be confirmed first...

So you'd rather the decisions be wrong, than correct. Fair enough if that's your view point. The game will continue from one corrupt decision to the next without any accountability if we carry on as we were... VAR needs to be more polished for sure, but it got the key decisions right last night. The fact that there were so many incidents in one game shows why it's needed for me and how refs with agendas could influence outcomes so much in the old system...

 

[Neville Kneville]

It’s easy to see that club loyalty will cloud judgement of the VAR decisions. Unlike the goal line technology which was overdue and leaves nothing open to debate. This has peoples views blurred depending who it benefits.

For my view I think he got the first one right and probably the second although I think it was quite fortunate and opens a different question.

The first he was offside the blocking/ pushing I think is around 50/50, I wouldn’t expect a penalty but likewise I don’t think a goal should be disallowed for blocking but yes offside. Ironically if he had pushed him further the goal might have stood.

On the second Livermore did pull him back, regardless of whether Salah would have got there makes it any less of a foul. However he did go down easier then needed and in the past it would have been difficult to spot and in a lot of ways it use to benefit players who where strong and honest who would have tried to carry on, now it will benefit the ones who hit the deck regardless on whether the contact causes that.

The ref last night I thought handled the 2 well. The first goal the decision was taken from him. The second he did not want to give in my view (either because WBA had just had one go against them, or it highlighted he would have made 2 mistakes), so he viewed it himself and made sure he was happy on the decision.

Side point - I’m sure there are many others as well but Vidic would suffer based on this rule, half his game was knowing when to hold a player and when to let go as to not be caught.

He wouldn't suffer, if the referee chose not to bother penalising him, as with the blatant push on Gareth Barry, but then penalised the opposition.

And nobody in the media would argue, it seems. Even some City fans would be happy to let it go, as with predictably one sided use of var the Liverpool game.

 

[Neville Kneville]

So you'd rather the decisions be wrong, than correct. Fair enough if that's your view point. The game will continue from one corrupt decision to the next without any accountability if we carry on as we were... VAR needs to be more polished for sure, but it got the key decisions right last night. The fact that there were so many incidents in one game shows why it's needed for me and how refs with agendas could influence outcomes so much in the old system...

I've just addressed this idea that it was 'correct' quoting you.

Not imo, it wasn't.

 

[Bluearmy]

We keep getting told that the calls were correct.

The pullback for which Salah was awarded a penalty, before the ball was even played in, didn't cause him to miss the ball or, fall to the floor, he dived & the ball was played into a 'dead' area.

How is this different, from routine pushing & shoving, at set pieces ?

If it is fair as a penalty, why is the quite blatant push on Gareth Barry, by Liverpool's goalkeeper, not a penalty ?

Why am I expected to accept this as being 100% correct & a vindication of this system ?

Because you are wrong.... go look at the laws. Salah was held back, according to the laws that's a foul/penalty. Where the ball is, the reason he missed it or that he made a meal of it doesn't come into it...

I agree there's far to much of it at set pieces, let's hope VAR addresses that too. A run of 2 or 3 games early giving those decisions, would stop it quickly.

The Barry incident is interesting. I've seen some highlights where Barry seems to push Mingulet too (pics aren't the best) no doubt Mingulet pushes Barry. So there both at it. However, IMO barry is obstructing the keeper from on offside position, interfering with play. A lot going on and people will have diffent views but with all things considered I think they made the right call to disallow it...

 

[Neville Kneville]

Because you are wrong.... go look at the laws. Salah was held back, according to the laws that's a foul/penalty. Where the ball is, the reason he missed it or that he made a meal of it doesn't come into it...

I agree there's far to much of it at set pieces, let's hope VAR addresses that too. A run of 2 or 3 games early giving those decisions, would stop it quickly.

The Barry incident is interesting. I've seen some highlights where Barry seems to push Mingulet too (pics aren't the best) no doubt Mingulet pushes Barry. However, IMO barry is obstructing the keeper from on offside position, interfering with play. A lot going on and people will have diffent views but with all things considered I think they made the right call to disallow it...

And you 'might' be right.

But the point is, we have been told that we can put up with all this shit, because it gets the 'correct' decision.

Well imo, the correct decision is a penalty to Liverpool & a penalty to West Brom, so we have put up with it all, & arrived at an incorrect decision which has tipped the game in favour of Liverpool.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

And you 'might' be right.

But the point is, we have been told that we can put up with all this shit, because it gets the 'correct' decision.

Well imo, the correct decision is a penalty to Liverpool & a penalty to West Brom, so we have put up with it all, & arrived at an incorrect decision which has tipped the game in favour of Liverpool.

Ah, they won another cup - The VAR Cup?

 

[mancunial]

Just had to happen there the place where they even appeal the correct heat of a burger [emoji102]