Veganism

bluethrunthru said:
well to go back to the OP - I don't see why firstly I should be LEGALLY obliged ( not obligated ) not to eat meat or dairy. Its not illegal ergo I am not obliged not to eat it. Yes I agree I am actively encouraged to do so by the way the world is run however I still do so out of choice. I say that because I like you have a choice.
I can justify eating meat on various nutritional, health and economic reasons . I don't laugh at vegans or vegetarians - I ave a vegetarian sister and daughter - however I don't seek to preach to them how my food choices should in some way take precedence over theirs. In fact thats not something I can recall any omnivore doing - yet oddly enough it seems to be the default position of most vegetarians and almost all vegans I meet - for some reason they can't wait to tell me how they are right and I am wrong .... and why.
I am not selfish - I am not ignorant - I am hungry and chose to fill my belly and that of my family - those who chose to do likewise - in a perfectly legal no preachy way with which I am perfectly happy thank you.
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Legally?
 
KenTheLandlord said:
worth a read whether you agree with it or not

http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ing-one-worst-crimes-history-ethical-question
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I like reading things so I read it. But imho that's a load of bullshit. We industrially farm animals because a; we can and b; shitloads of people eat them. Someone saying it's cruel is hypocritical because if you give that much of a shit about live beings you wouldn't eat fruit or veg either. As the article said, animals we use as food are barely sentient anyway. So I call bullshit on that article trying to make meat eaters feel bad for doing what we've always done. Pisses me right of that shit like that is allowed to be published when it's clearly fucking bolloks.
 
Yaya_Tony said:
I like reading things so I read it. But imho that's a load of bullshit. We industrially farm animals because a; we can and b; shitloads of people eat them. Someone saying it's cruel is hypocritical because if you give that much of a shit about live beings you wouldn't eat fruit or veg either. As the article said, animals we use as food are barely sentient anyway. So I call bullshit on that article trying to make meat eaters feel bad for doing what we've always done. Pisses me right of that shit like that is allowed to be published when it's clearly fucking bolloks.
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Bleach mate. Nobody can answer the question about why, if they believe in the sanctity of life regardless of species, they use bleach which is a chemical that burns bacteria to death. If the excuse is "well that's TOO low a form of life" then they're essentially negotiating on the sanctity of life which is what the rest of us are doing yet drawing different lines in the sand.

The problem with Veganism is that it is inherently a logically inconsistent framework unless the reasoning is "well I don't really like the taste of meat"
 
Damocles said:
Bleach mate. Nobody can answer the question about why, if they believe in the sanctity of life regardless of species, they use bleach which is a chemical that burns bacteria to death. If the excuse is "well that's TOO low a form of life" then they're essentially negotiating on the sanctity of life which is what the rest of us are doing yet drawing different lines in the sand.

The problem with Veganism is that it is inherently a logically inconsistent framework unless the reasoning is "well I don't really like the taste of meat"
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Couldn't agree more. If you won't eat lamb for example but you'll swat a fly or stamp on a spider, you're a hypocrite. Even if you do none of the above. You still use cleaning products, like bleach, and they kill shit. And you still eat dead vegetables. They were alive once. It's fucking bullshit to claim moral high ground over what you fucking choose to shovel down your pie hole. We all need to eat. What we choose to is no business of anyone else until some smarmy prick thinks his choice is better and goes off on one. Then this boring shit starts. No way will I back down from being an omnivore. Said before my own mother is vegan. She still roasted lamb for us on a Sunday. She kept her beliefs to herself and didn't tell us what to think. Her mother, my Nonna, is thankfully not a vegan and makes the greatest meat dishes, that my mother no longer experiences. Vegan I can get, if it makes you feel better go for it. But don't try to tell any other fucker what to do. You're just going to piss people off.
 
Damocles said:
Bleach mate. Nobody can answer the question about why, if they believe in the sanctity of life regardless of species, they use bleach which is a chemical that burns bacteria to death. If the excuse is "well that's TOO low a form of life" then they're essentially negotiating on the sanctity of life which is what the rest of us are doing yet drawing different lines in the sand.

The problem with Veganism is that it is inherently a logically inconsistent framework unless the reasoning is "well I don't really like the taste of meat"
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Bang on. I'm convinced it's an inherant squeamishness that makes them abhor meat, and the bleach analogy destroys any credibility about the sanctity of life.
So, we'll still be scoffing our KFC's and burgers, blissfully giving not one fuck.
 
Damocles said:
Bleach mate. Nobody can answer the question about why, if they believe in the sanctity of life regardless of species, they use bleach which is a chemical that burns bacteria to death. If the excuse is "well that's TOO low a form of life" then they're essentially negotiating on the sanctity of life which is what the rest of us are doing yet drawing different lines in the sand.

The problem with Veganism is that it is inherently a logically inconsistent framework unless the reasoning is "well I don't really like the taste of meat"
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Not necessarily, my sister is a vegan largely for environmental reasons. Meat/dairy has a huge carbon footprint compared to vegetables.
 
without a dream said:
Not necessarily, my sister is a vegan largely for environmental reasons. Meat/dairy has a huge carbon footprint compared to vegetables.
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Cow flatulence is supposed to contribute considerably to global warming. If someone could invent a means of plumbing in cows arses to capture the methane, a new energy source could be harnessed and global warming would reduce.
 
I think I called 'hypocrite' a couple of days ago on this shit - cap most definitely fits all round for anyone who declares themselves veg(insert-anything-here)an
 
Damocles said:
So does the aircraft industry, does she also never fly anywhere?
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or drive a car - particularly a Vee Dub diesel - or go by bust - dirty polluting diesel things - or go by train - again diesel ( unless you can be sure where the electricity that powers the electric ones is made - I mean. Nuclear? Come on !! ) - nor have any light after dark - same thing over electricity again and burning fossil fuels for light and heat - well thats environmentally bad - then there's plastics and leathergoods and furniture ............

You see what I am trying to say is there is a level of hypocrisy in ducking out of one little bit of the modern world then denouncing those who don't and preaching to them whilst avidly partaking of the rest the modern world has to offer and conveniently turning your own blind eye to those inconvenient truths.

We are where we are - if you unravel one bit the whole bloody lot falls to bits and we start living in caves and holding cup finals at Stonehenge again............... well that WAS why it was built?
 
Damocles said:
Top post, loads of respect for that mate. You're entitled to your views and of course are passionate about them but seeing outside the own argument is an incredibly rare trait. Could do with another 100 of you on here recently.
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Ha, at least I dragged a good post or 2 out of you and a few others, and everyone else got to let off some steam and readers got think I'm a sanctimonious shit :) It's a touchy subject and it ought to be.

-/-

Just a post though to better explain why I don't think my "line" is arbitrary. I confess right away, I am not a professor. This stuff though, is good enough for me..

First the visual stuff, like when I stepped on a dog's paw. It yelped, appeared frightened, and then yelped and then yelped some more. It didn't look like nociceptors at work to me. The thing appeared to be in pain for a considerable time. I believe these types of animals are conscious, they dream, show affection, become anxious etc. They learn to avoid pain, like when you can make an elephant perform a trick by swinging a hammer at it's legs if it does wrong.

Also, I have read, that invertebrates are thought to lack a nervous system complex enough to feel pain.. so that's your snails/slugs/fly and so on. I am not saying they can not feel pain, they have brains after all, but it seems the evidence is against it. I don't go out of my way to kill bugs. The single cell stuff doesn't have brains, the bacteria and so on, so while they can chemically react to things, I can not believe they experience what is called "pain" in any real sense of the word.

These cannot be considered facts, because pain is an emotion, and we can't be in the mind of another animal. I never should have used "fact" that was silly and I can't pretend anyone therefore has a logical obligation. (I'm not admitting defeat, I think the reasons above should be compelling enough for most people)
 
BlueTangerine said:
Ha, at least I dragged a good post or 2 out of you and a few others, and everyone else got to let off some steam and readers got think I'm a sanctimonious shit :) It's a touchy subject and it ought to be.

-/-

Just a post though to better explain why I don't think my "line" is arbitrary. I confess right away, I am not a professor. This stuff though, is good enough for me..

First the visual stuff, like when I stepped on a dog's paw. It yelped, appeared frightened, and then yelped and then yelped some more. It didn't look like nociceptors at work to me. The thing appeared to be in pain for a considerable time. I believe these types of animals are conscious, they dream, show affection, become anxious etc. They learn to avoid pain, like when you can make an elephant perform a trick by swinging a hammer at it's legs if it does wrong.

Also, I have read, that invertebrates are thought to lack a nervous system complex enough to feel pain.. so that's your snails/slugs/fly and so on. I am not saying they can not feel pain, they have brains after all, but it seems the evidence is against it. I don't go out of my way to kill bugs. The single cell stuff doesn't have brains, the bacteria and so on, so while they can chemically react to things, I can not believe they experience what is called "pain" in any real sense of the word.

These cannot be considered facts, because pain is an emotion, and we can't be in the mind of another animal. I never should have used "fact" that was silly and I can't pretend anyone therefore has a logical obligation. (I'm not admitting defeat, I think the reasons above should be compelling enough for most people)
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It's not about pain or admitting defeat. What your trying to do man is tell other people what to do because you're thinking that your way is better. I've not no beef with you personally and always found you sound. But you can't tell me what to eat man. Especially when your grounds are fundamentally wrong. Vegtables were alive once. I'm sure you clean the kitchen. Life is life. If you care about life you should eat pasta and never clean your house. Even the wheat that makes the pasta was alive once! So don't know what to suggest.
 
Yaya_Tony said:
It's not about pain or admitting defeat. What your trying to do man is tell other people what to do because you're thinking that your way is better. I've not no beef with you personally and always found you sound. But you can't tell me what to eat man. Especially when your grounds are fundamentally wrong. Vegtables were alive once. I'm sure you clean the kitchen. Life is life. If you care about life you should eat pasta and never clean your house. Even the wheat that makes the pasta was alive once! So don't know what to suggest.
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To be fair mate, pain has virtually all it's ever been about for me. I have mentioned pain in nearly every post. Jeremy Bentham had I right I believe:
“The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer?”

I just tried to explain that I think it needs a brain, and certain configurations in order for a living thing to suffer.

Oh and I did say more than once, I am not trying to tell people what to eat. I tried, bumblingly, to appeal to people's emotions by creating a scenario where the automatic judgement means you are selfish.
 
BlueTangerine said:
People tend to laugh at this, and I don't really see what's funny.

I feel like once you know the facts of your existence, you are logically obligated to not eat meat or dairy/perpetuate suffering you know is happening. In basically the same way you wouldn't yourself want to be farmed, tortured, live a miserable life, and have a miserable death. Vegans cause less harm, that's just how it is.

Life arose in a cesspit billions of years ago and has been evolving ever since with no intelligence or any compassion for sentient life whatsoever. Life is imposed, so you have no choice in playing the game, you just suddenly arrive on planet Earth. We grow up seeing nature at work, and some people think it's beautiful, which is strange because we all know the miseries that happen to sentient creatures every second. Most of which we can nothing about, but the bit we can do something about though (because we're smart) is the harm that we cause.

I am utterly ashamed when I think of all the meat I've eaten and how unquestioning and selfish I was. In what world, when there is plenty of stuff to eat, (and no, I am not having it that a lettuce has the capacity to feel pain like animal does) does it make any sense to exploit others?

Would beings more intelligent than ourselves cause needless suffering? I don't think so.

Can someone rationally justify themselves eating meat? Or are you forced to admit that you are just an ignorant/selfish person?
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Surely plants etc are living. How do you know they don't scream when you boil/fry them.
Anyway i am not ignorant but am very selfish and eat meat because i like it.
I get a buzz from the calories and fucking good meal.
 
prestonibbo_mcfc said:
Surely plants etc are living. How do you know they don't scream when you boil/fry them.
Anyway i am not ignorant but am very selfish and eat meat because i like it.
I get a buzz from the calories and fucking good meal.
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I don't know for 100% - I think it requires brains, nervous systems, sentience etc in order to "feel" anything. Fair play to you though, for admitting. It's refreshing for someone willing to be true to themselves.
 
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