Vieira to New York?

Falastur said:
Ahh, grandsolo. I knew I could count on you to have no intention of actually reading my argument and instead pretend that I made a point you find easier to rail against.



I agree, in on-pitch terms. But is it fair to the other club to be given a load of players who they know they are only going to get 1-2 years out, knowing that if they show the slightest promise it's a guarantee that that player will not be returning because he's definitely going to be snaffled back up by the parent club? At least in the majority of loans, clubs do not tend to loan the same team consistently. Even in the cases where they do, those clubs do not also have to put up with the various other branding links NYCFC has got with us - links that CFG promised would not be made when the club was first unveiled.
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Of course it's fair, forget the City connection for a second... if City weren't related in any way to NYCFC there wouldn't be this inferiority complex. City are a far bigger and more established club they want to loan some of their younger prospects out at professional level to see if they can cut it, if they show enough promise they will bring them back... why wouldn't they, why shouldn't they? They trained and nurtured these talents in the hopes of producing something. It's no different to when Real or Barca send out their players on loan some make it(no NYCFC fan would be disgruntled at wanting to keep a loanee from either of these clubs, probably happy that they get to try them in the team instead and enjoy the ride), some don't(if City feel they aren't 1st team material which most wont be then it will be a case of getting the best price on a sale). NYCFC on the other hand are brand new club who aren't producing their own talents, so they HAVE to either loan or buy it's that simple. What they are getting is decent prospects at a probably cheaper price than they could have hoped for, for the same quality elsewhere. So they are benefiting from the situation however you want to spin it, loans should be seen as temporary(all PL clubs that loan players understand this) unless there is an obligation to buy clause in the deal, while they either bring through their own long term prospects or buy in talent to fill the positions where the team lacks the quality required.
 
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Falastur said:
I agree but the thing is that cooperation has to be equal if the NYCFC fans are going to accept it.
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It's not going to be equal though is it? City are a team stacked with top quality players, some excellent youth prospects and compete at the highest level. NYC are a new team in an average league with little appeal other than to a few former stars now coming to the end of their careers and youth talent hoping to get some experience before moving on to bigger and better things.

They have benefited from having a couple of younger players on loan from us who they would otherwise be unable to attract. That can only be to the advantage of NYC in the short term until they are able to attract better players themselves. Teams loan out players all the time and it should benefit both clubs and the player. That's why they do it.
 
I was over in the State in the summer and was lucky enough to catch an NYFC game.

You can see a split between the fans, the noisy boisterous ones who I'm guessing want to see NYFC grow as a club on its own two feet (they are sat behind the goal on the left as you watch on TV) and those who just want to go and watch a game of football because it's a new thing that interests them (the rest of the stadium).

I think the former look down on the latter as they may have been following the game a little longer. Support wise and in terms of bums on seats, the latter heavily outnumbers the former.

without city, they wouldn't have a team to support. I'm not sure if they totally grasp that or can accept it. They need to.

Like rivalries (which they are trying to create with New York ((Jersey)) red bulls) an identity will evolve of over time. I am sensing they want it right nowThough.

One thing that did strike me was the number of people in the stadium and in New York in general wearing City tops. New York is definitely blue.
 
If Paddy V goes to New York, Wilcox has got to get promoted, the guy is fantastic.
 
warpig said:
I was over in the State in the summer and was lucky enough to catch an NYFC game.

You can see a split between the fans, the noisy boisterous ones who I'm guessing want to see NYFC grow as a club on its own two feet (they are sat behind the goal on the left as you watch on TV) and those who just want to go and watch a game of football because it's a new thing that interests them (the rest of the stadium).

I think the former look down on the latter as they may have been following the game a little longer. Support wise and in terms of bums on seats, the latter heavily outnumbers the former.

without city, they wouldn't have a team to support. I'm not sure if they totally grasp that or can accept it. They need to.

Like rivalries (which they are trying to create with New York ((Jersey)) red bulls) an identity will evolve of over time. I am sensing they want it right nowThough.

One thing that did strike me was the number of people in the stadium and in New York in general wearing City tops. New York is definitely blue.
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You missed the 'C' out of NYCFC mate, which is kind of the whole point of them existing! ;-)

I was in NY over the summer as well, and was surprised how popular NYCFC, MCFC and football was in general. Definitely saw more City shirts on sale in the US than rag shirts. Probably due to Nike's distribution network.

The only exception was Modell's in Time Square. They had a huge NYCFC concession there and it was definitely the most popular section of the shop. They didn't have any MCFC shirts in there, but had training tops. I think it was because they are obviously trying to establish NYCFC as a brand, and having the same colour shirt with the same sponsor but a different badge would probably be quite confusing for people not really familiar with either team.
 
Falastur said:
I agree but the thing is that cooperation has to be equal if the NYCFC fans are going to accept it. They all loved Facey and Angelino's performances but ultimately they are over there to get practice so that they can play for MCFC. If Pellegrini decides he wanted to call up Angelino to the City first team, which city do you think he'll be in in a month's time? Not NYC, and they know that. If Vieira did go over there, did well for a season and we couldn't sign Pep and wanted Paddy back, do you think they'd wait for his contract in New York to run down? No, they'd just transfer him to Manchester.

In this situation, they aren't ultimately equal. They feel like they are being treated like nothing more than an incubator for our talent. Remember when the Football League clubs were furious when it was suggested that Premier League sign partnerships with FL clubs and use them as place to put all their youth players, right around when the B team idea came out? This is that exact situation.

Honestly, cooperation between the club's can work well but CFG needs to agree to keep the teams completely separate for a few years while the other clubs form identity and so on, and then start interacting later on when each club's sets of fans have become convinced that CFG is not just using them to promote MCFC. So long as they keep tinkering like this, the paranoia is going to increase.
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Disagree. The most important thing is winning IMO. Win at all costs and the fans will flock to the club.

Their identity is our identity too. We want them playing like we play. That is why Kreis shadowed Pellers for 6 months. This club is meant to be a US version of City. If they achieve that I honestly think it will transform the MLS.
 
BlueDeadHead said:
Disagree. The most important thing is winning IMO. Win at all costs and the fans will flock to the club.

Their identity is our identity too. We want them playing like we play. That is why Kreis shadowed Pellers for 6 months. This club is meant to be a US version of City. If they achieve that I honestly think it will transform the MLS.
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I know New Yorkers love their a winner, but I think identity is more important to them. The Red Bulls have been one of the top teams over there for a while, but because they are seen as a corporate sell-out and because they claim NY identity yet play in New Jersey, they can barely muster 15,000 fans at each game.
 
Falastur said:
I know New Yorkers love their a winner, but I think identity is more important to them. The Red Bulls have been one of the top teams over there for a while, but because they are seen as a corporate sell-out and because they claim NY identity yet play in New Jersey, they can barely muster 15,000 fans at each game.
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I am thinking of fans not in NY specifically.
 
Falastur said:
I agree but the thing is that cooperation has to be equal if the NYCFC fans are going to accept it. They all loved Facey and Angelino's performances but ultimately they are over there to get practice so that they can play for MCFC. If Pellegrini decides he wanted to call up Angelino to the City first team, which city do you think he'll be in in a month's time? Not NYC, and they know that. If Vieira did go over there, did well for a season and we couldn't sign Pep and wanted Paddy back, do you think they'd wait for his contract in New York to run down? No, they'd just transfer him to Manchester.

In this situation, they aren't ultimately equal. They feel like they are being treated like nothing more than an incubator for our talent. Remember when the Football League clubs were furious when it was suggested that Premier League sign partnerships with FL clubs and use them as place to put all their youth players, right around when the B team idea came out? This is that exact situation.

Honestly, cooperation between the club's can work well but CFG needs to agree to keep the teams completely separate for a few years while the other clubs form identity and so on, and then start interacting later on when each club's sets of fans have become convinced that CFG is not just using them to promote MCFC. So long as they keep tinkering like this, the paranoia is going to increase.
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well, it's not CFG's fault the Americans aren't capitalist about their football and won't let NYCFC spend what they want to attract who they want, so ultimately, if NYCFC want to exist in MLS, they have to rely on handouts and favours from us until they can get through enough drafts and enough transfer windows to have gotten rid of the shite they started with, and actually end up with a decent squad.

NYCFC had a choice of having no help and either not existing or being easily bottom of the league, or accepting a few handouts to artificially inflate their ability and results and give them a fighting chance. They can't be equal because they're not equal. It's like them demanding to be in the 100m final with Usain Bolt when they haven't got the talent to earn it, in this case Bolt is kindly running the 200 to give them a shot at doing something.
 
Wrong move on all the parties involved.Foreign managers have least change to be successful in mls.The league itself is as complicated as ffp.
Weird rules and regulations to top it off with drafts/caps/trade/ ....bs after bs.
 
JoeMercer'sWay said:
well, it's not CFG's fault the Americans aren't capitalist about their football and won't let NYCFC spend what they want to attract who they want, so ultimately, if NYCFC want to exist in MLS, they have to rely on handouts and favours from us until they can get through enough drafts and enough transfer windows to have gotten rid of the shite they started with, and actually end up with a decent squad.

NYCFC had a choice of having no help and either not existing or being easily bottom of the league, or accepting a few handouts to artificially inflate their ability and results and give them a fighting chance. They can't be equal because they're not equal. It's like them demanding to be in the 100m final with Usain Bolt when they haven't got the talent to earn it, in this case Bolt is kindly running the 200 to give them a shot at doing something.
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That's my point. They'd rather stick with the dross than rely on CFG.

BlueDeadHead said:
I am thinking of fans not in NY specifically.
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NYCFC are a NYC team. Why are fans outside of NYC relevant?
 
Falastur said:
That's my point. They'd rather stick with the dross than rely on CFG.



NYCFC are a NYC team. Why are fans outside of NYC relevant?
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Same reason City fans outside of Manchester are important. They pay the bills.

Most people in the States don't have a local MLS team so if and when the football every gets near a standard that it is worth watching...NYCFC is going to have an opportunity to build a very large fanbase.
 
BlueDeadHead said:
Same reason City fans outside of Manchester are important. They pay the bills.

Most people in the States don't have a local MLS team so if and when the football every gets near a standard that it is worth watching...NYCFC is going to have an opportunity to build a very large fanbase.
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I think you may be overlooking the way that people outside of NYC hate the people inside it and hate their teams. Possible exception of the Yankees, NYC teams don't tend to build much support outside of the metropolitan area. It's a bit like how people outside London despise Londoners, only with a specific application to sports.

There will be a handful of outsider NYCFC fans, but they will always be the exception rather than the rule.
 
Falastur said:
I think you may be overlooking the way that people outside of NYC hate the people inside it and hate their teams. Possible exception of the Yankees, NYC teams don't tend to build much support outside of the metropolitan area. It's a bit like how people outside London despise Londoners, only with a specific application to sports.

There will be a handful of outsider NYCFC fans, but they will always be the exception rather than the rule.
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I disagree. I know plenty of people craving a real club who actually plays football to support. There is a set of fans our there who are huge supporters of their MLS clubs. They tend to live in those cities. There is a much much bigger untapped market of potential fans who don't have allegiances because they have no connections to the MLS cities and they want a better product. These are TV viewers...they don't care about the match day experience. They just want attractive footy. They first team to provide that gets the first shot at those folks. IMO.

Also, I don't think you are necessarily correct about people hating NY teams. The Giants and Jets are nowhere near the most hated teams in the NFL. Hockey is largely irrelevant. Not sure about the Knicks and as you say the Yankees (our silent partner) are the biggest team in Baseball.
 
NYCFC are always going to be connected to MCFC. I don't know what's so hard for New Yorkers to understand. If they don't like being connected to City, then they can follow the NYRB's or the Cosmos. I am really confused as to why they feel so passionate about a team that was so open from the beginning about being connected to a larger footballing organization. It's not like they weren't told up front that they would be completely separate identity.
 
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