Why The Hell Would Anyone Want Mancini Sacked ?

[Berkovic_blue]

Do the stats not sum it up for you?

Do they tell you WHY?

Shall I give it a go?

Dortmund away:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009582/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009582/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

What we see at the top is Dortmund clearly having the attacking momentum and what you notice on the diagram is that they have a much higher concentration of what UEFA call "Effective play" in around our box, and importantly it is spread down both flanks as well, showing that they get width in their play. City have no effective plays down the right side despite deploying Maicon, and on the left it is a rare play by Nasri. There are a few plays from the centre of the pitch just inside Dortmund's half but there are hardly any plays around the edge of the box unlike Dortmund who swarm that area. If you also notice who causes those events(hover over the splodge) you will see that they are mainly strikers, and in this case this shows the deepness of our play for them to be that deep. On the Dortmund side you see the fullbacks, attacking midfielders and wingers all contributing to the play just outside the box, all interlinking across that area with the appearances by Reus and Lewandowski predominantly occurring on the 18 yard line. Countless apperances by the Dortmund midfielders, hardly any from Nasri, Garcia, Barry, Sinclair(none), if we look at the average positions of both teams:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009582/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009582/pitch-view/team-shape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... team-shape</a>

You see that we both have a similar set-up at the back. However the midfield is the contrast, with City you can join up the midfielders into a relatively small shape, Dortmund you can see have an almost V shape, giving them much more width and a lot more space to play in. The dotted lines show the link-up between the players and you can see that the Dortmund players can interlink through this V allowing quicker movement of the ball over a wider area, City's play is very narrow and is relying on going through the heart of the defence. This joins up well with the first map as it shows how Dortmund became a lot more effective across the pitch in our final third whereas we, apart from very rare occassions from Nasri offered nothing in wider areas and had to rely on the strikers forcing their way through the central final 3rd of Dortmund.

Now that only explains our problems in Dortmund, every game is different as we can see from the Madrid home game:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009559/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009559/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

What we can see here is that in this game we put on a much better showing going forward, our strikers are higher up the pitch and there is more play on our side of the halfway line showing more good build-up. What we can notice is that our attacking play is across the edge of the area. Maicon makes a much larger impact on this game and we limit Madrid in wide areas meaning that they also have to rely on the centre of the pitch, however they do have some good plays as well showing the competitive nature of the game. Madrid do have more effective areas around the edge of the 6 yard box however suggesting they are finding their way into close range easier and more effective plays from the deep lying areas of midfield which you'd expect with a player like Xabi Alonso in their side.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009559/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009559/pitch-view/team-shape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... team-shape</a>

This map does look a bit odd but there are things that we can see, most notable of which is the interlinking between the back 4 and Yaya, the wingbacks being much higher up the pitch into the Madrid half and the triangle between Nasri, Silva and Yaya. So we have more width(albeit AK got taken off at HT), we end up with a tight defensive midfield spot as Garcia and Yaya are on top of each other but there is more room further forward as Silva and Nasri play further away from each other than what happened in Dortmund. On the Madrid map you can see they are fairly narrow and that Di Maria plays very deep, and that having the extra body in the centre of the park in Garcia in the 2nd half may well have been a reason why the 2nd half was more even. You can see the link that can easily form from Xabi Alonso, into Khedira through Modric to Ronaldo where the danger will start, that's reflected in the fact that the areas on the first map around our area that are green are predominantly Ronaldo and Benzema, the ball is being fed to them in dangerous areas.

Onto Ajax home:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009550/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009550/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

This shows that Ajax's right centre back and right back combination were pretty poor as we have a hatful of chances on the right edge of the 6 yard box. Otherwise we see a bit of activity around the box, a bit of play by Nasri on the left side and again nothing down the right and this nothing from deep, whereas Ajax have a lot more activity in the central areas spreading into our final third, showing that they are controlling the play through the midfield, our defensive midfield is struggling it seems. Crucially they have a massive blob in the heart of our 6 yard box which is where De Jong bagged both his goals, we all know how bad our set piece defending was in that game and it was key as Ajax offered very little else in our penalty area.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009550/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009550/pitch-view/team-shape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... team-shape</a>

Here we can see that we have a simple shape, again quite narrow in the midfield with 2 blocks of 4 and we don't see much activity in these areas on the first chart. The fullbacks are also deeper than against Madrid, for Ajax we can clearly see that they don't have an out and out forward and so their activity in our box is low for a reason and the reason they control the ball in the midfield is because they spread out 5 players in that area all interlinking with 1 anchorman, this means that they have 5 bodies converging on our defence unless our defensive midfielders are on top of it, and there is also a fair amount of width in the Ajax attack which means that although they weren't effective in the wide areas it offered more space in the centre where they made more effective plays.

Now onto the reverse fixture:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009526/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009526/pitch-view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... pitch-view</a>

The first thing to notice is the bar at the top where it clearly shows that we have 2 large spells of dominance in the first half but waste one of them. Then in the 2nd half we completely drop off and Ajax have 2 huge spells of dominance and utilise both.

What we see on the chart that in the first half both Clichy and Micah got forward, Micah has plays in the Ajax box and Clichy has activity in Ajax's half as well. You can also see that in the first half(hover over the splodges) we had a higher line as Kompany and Lescott were making passes further up the pitch. Ajax had a number of key splodges around or in our penalty area and once again it was poor defending from set pieces that first undid us. They also have little bits of activity over a wide spread of the pitch but the key thing is those 4 splodges in our area compared to the ones in there's and what they turned into, this was a missed opportunity.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009526/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009526/pitch-view/team-shape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... team-shape</a>

We can see the Ajax shape hasn't changed but what has is our midfield. It is no longer 2 blocks of 2 but without Garcia Milner has pushed higher up and a bit wider, Yaya links right behind Nasri but with Milner pulling right and Barry staying leftish it offers a bit more room and a bit more ability to spread the ball instead of having it stuck in 2 blocks of 2, the marauding qualities of Micah and Clichy also help but it also means in defending that Milner and Barry can cover onto the 2 most dropped off of the 5 Ajax attackers and Yaya onto their number 5 meaning that Nasri stays free to counter-attack and in the first half it worked well as we were much the better team. The moral is simple mistakes cost you and that front 5 of Ajax caused us problems in the same areas in both games and in both games we lacked something holding in that area.

Onto Dortmund home:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/statistics/round=2000347/matches/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... index.html</a>

This shows clearly that Dortmund were killing us down our left hand side, there is only a small amount of activity down their left so unlike the away game it's not as spread but they are creating a huge amount down that right hand side and into the right hand side of the box. We actually have a nice amount of effective play from our midfield and a little bit of activity down our right side, unfortunately the player map for this doesn't work to look at why.

Onto Madrid away:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009503/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009503/pitch-view/influence" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... /influence</a>

Here we are clearly butchered. Xabi Alonso controls the central areas from deep where the CB's push forward and join in and then through the midfield where they spread out wider where the addition of Marcelo instead of Coentrao means that they attack a lot down the left, even a steady RB in Arbeloa gets forward well. The fullbacks, Ozil, Di Maria, Ronaldo and Essien all contribute a lot around the box and it also shows how they flood the edge of the box in the final third of the match, and the goals come as a result with the small anomaly of Benzema right on the left side of the 6 yard box but we all know Vinnie cocked that one up. We have very little to shout about apart from the one big move between Yaya and Edin on the break.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009503/postmatch/statistics/index.html#1/2013/2000347/2009503/pitch-view/team-shape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague ... team-shape</a>

Here we can see our odd midfield formation. There is no-one parallel to Nasri on the left side so it allows Di Maria, Arbeloa and Khedira to build in that area. We can also see in a similar way to Ajax how they have one man deep in Alonso who can allow the play to build but their midfield is spread out, allowing space and the ball to move quickly, Ronaldo splinters off into space and will drag players with him creating even more space. The more advanced position of Di Maria will have also contributed to the fact that Madrid were far more effective attackingly and less narrow than they were in Manchester. You can see that Mancini addresses the Di Maria problem by bringing on AK but our attacking performance changes when Dzeko comes on for Silva, it takes away one of the 4 in the midfield block of 2 + 2(that seems a Mancini trademark at this point) and allows more directness in the midfield. The big problem though comes with the Zabaleta for Maicon change, look at where Zaba's shirt is compared to Maicon, further up and more central, this is why Benzema got in down the left for that 3rd goal, Maicon's positioning up to that point hadn't done too badly, Zabaleta advancing more to where AK was in a "3 at the back" scenario caused the problems at the end, Mancini's change didn't work.

Hope that's some analysis for you.

Thanks, but I can't be arsed reading any of that lol

 

[moomba]

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotteli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

There's probably more. I've asked these questions on so many occasions yet nobody ever says, "right, I think you are wrong and this is why you are wrong". It's "you're wrong because you are we won the league and the cup".

No-one has the nerve to answer each point in a civilised manner because they might get proved wrong, they don't want to and are putting their fingers into their ears shouting "la-la-la".

And no, I won't be on here tomorrow night, win, lose or draw, because I will be in the pub - if that's alright! ;)

If there was a significant problem with all of the things above then we wouldn't have achieved the successes we have.

It's not the first time someone has come on here and stated that we should have walked the league last season, to be be perfectly honest I think they have unrealistic expectations to start with. 2nd place in the league finished with 6 points less than the best ever premier league points tally, if you expected us to walk the league I don't think you're going to be satisfied with any manager.

You talk again about our form against decent teams this year, this time tomorrow we may well have beaten two of the next best three teams in the league and drawn with the other. Europe has been a disappointment of course, but you seem to hold Mancini responsible for any failure in Europe (while at the same time attributing any success to the players in spite of Mancini). Sorry, but there is no balance in your point of view, so it may be why people are reluctant to engage with you.

And as much as you go on about no-one answering your points in a civil manner, you seem to be ignoring the fact that many have done so, you have jsut ignored them. And right now, you're posts seem to be full of insults targeted at anyone that doesn't share your point of view. Slight stain of hypocrisy I'm afraid.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

*sobs and scuttles off to find somewhere where his stats and analysis are more appreciated*

 

[DD]

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotteli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

There's probably more. I've asked these questions on so many occasions yet nobody ever says, "right, I think you are wrong and this is why you are wrong". It's "you're wrong because you are we won the league and the cup".

No-one has the nerve to answer each point in a civilised manner because they might get proved wrong, they don't want to and are putting their fingers into their ears shouting "la-la-la".

And no, I won't be on here tomorrow night, win, lose or draw, because I will be in the pub - if that's alright! ;)

If there was a significant problem with all of the things above then we wouldn't have achieved the successes we have.

It's not the first time someone has come on here and stated that we should have walked the league last season, to be be perfectly honest I think they have unrealistic expectations to start with. 2nd place in the league finished with 6 points less than the best ever premier league points tally, if you expected us to walk the league I don't think you're going to be satisfied with any manager.

You talk again about our form against decent teams this year, this time tomorrow we may well have beaten two of the next best three teams in the league and drawn with the other. Europe has been a disappointment of course, but you seem to hold Mancini responsible for any failure in Europe (while at the same time attributing any success to the players in spite of Mancini). Sorry, but there is no balance in your point of view, so it may be why people are reluctant to engage with you.

And as much as you go on about no-one answering your points in a civil manner, you seem to be ignoring the fact that many have done so, you have jsut ignored them. And right now, you're posts seem to be full of insults targeted at anyone that doesn't share your point of view. Slight stain of hypocrisy I'm afraid.

No they hadn't actually. Not even close. This was the first reasonable response, although it only semi-answered two of the points.

 

[blumoonrisen]

Embarrassing this place at times, no bloody wonder no atmosphere at home games

What has this forum got to do with atmosphere at games..? I'd say far less than 5% of our matchday support comes on here, a point missed by most folk.

How i wish you were right

Of course I'm right... no way are there 2000 match going supporters on here.!

 

[jay_mcfc]

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotteli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

1- You need to say more than just 'tactics'. Bad tacticians do not win leagues.
2- Absolute rubbish. The list of players that have improved under Mancini is long
3- Balotelli is a squad player who starts very few games. He has been banned from playing and been fined in the past. On the pitch, Mancini lambasts Mario more than he ever does anyone else. Not really sure what your point is to be honest.
4- Our form in the league is good. Champs league is a different matter. You don't win every game and form is temporary. We won't know whether these draws against these teams are good or bad until the last game of the season.
5- Ridiculous discussion at this point of his management.
6- Rubbish. We generally have more possession and more shots in every single game we play in the league.
7- Your opinion. Doesn't really count tbh. Some games his tinkering works sometimes it doesn't but things musn't be going well in the first place for him to tinker with it.
8- Why's that then? If we had a different manager how would that have affected United getting 89 points? Or do you think we should have got 100 points? After all we only had 18 points more than the previous season...
9- I revert back to answer 6
10- No real arguments although I don't care how he did at Inter. Last season we did quite well all things considered but this season has been a disaster. Oh well, Europe is gone so isn't relevant anymore until the end of the season.

If that's the best you've got, I'd try again.

 

[chesterbells]

Plenty of people have responded, just not with a point of view that matches yours.

We won the Cup and the League is the sum total of reasoned response; along with the you're a dick approach, of course.

No-one has ever responded to individual points made about

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotelli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

There's probably more. I've asked these questions on so many occasions yet nobody ever says, "right, I think you are wrong and this is why you are wrong". It's "you're wrong because you are we won the league and the cup".

No-one has the nerve to answer each point in a civilised manner because they might get proved wrong, they don't want to and are putting their fingers into their ears shouting "la-la-la".

And no, I won't be on here tomorrow night, win, lose or draw, because I will be in the pub - if that's alright! ;)

-- Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:26 pm --

You don't deserve that your points be debated.

You can't. That's why. Admit it. :)

Turned pretty sour on here tonight hasn't it?

Like everyone else I think your comments about the game tomorrow went too far & lacked perspective. I expect they'll have appeared on a few opposition forums by now. I mean, the night before a derby, ffs.

But I will say that a fair number of those points above are perfectly valid questions to raise on a forum & are ones I would ask too

 

[Damocles]

And so still no-one is intelligent enough to reply to the points. No, you don't have to. Anyone with intelligence can spot, though, that the reason nobody does is because nobody can.

That's getting very close to trolling.

I suppose it's a kind of hope that it might anger someone into a reasoned response, but as there quite clearly isn't one, then it would appear to be a forlorn dream. :)

Yeah, that's trolling.

Please state your opinion and leave others to judge whether they find it worthy of reply :)

 

[Berkovic_blue]

Again, the point is missed. Did we win the things because of Mancini or in spite of him? I think the latter.

You keep going back to this point as if it's the central basis of your argument.

Let's just break it down a bit, what you are claiming is that a man who the owners put their faith in and pay millions of pounds per year to pick the starting XI, choose the tactics and substitutions, coach and motivate the players is actually terrible at his job.

And despite being so bad, by some sheer miracle the players managed to overcome this entirely off their own backs and put in one of the ballsiest and dominating end of season runs in history to claim the Premier League Title all whilst being hindered by the man in charge of managing them.

Do you not realise how utterly fucking stupid that sounds? Really?

You should expand on the point of just how you think this miracle occurred, because at the moment it comes across as a meaningless (and ridiculous) soundbite from somebody who does not appear to have the first clue about how football works. Don't forget to include Mark Hughes in your answer with respect to the appalling performances that were occurring before Mancini arrived, I'm sure it will make fascinating reading.

 

[waspish]

And so still no-one is intelligent enough to reply to the points. No, you don't have to. Anyone with intelligence can spot, though, that the reason nobody does is because nobody can.

He who shouts and insults loudest wins the argument round here.

You can write 'War and Peace', and then somebody quotes it and says 'crap' and everyone agrees because the retorter has 18,000 posts !:)

It reminds me of the woman who, when there is clearly something wrong, responds to your "what's up love" with a grumpy, "nothing". You know there is, you know there's plenty to say, but they won't say it because they know deep down inside that they are not on safe ground to argue back, because you'd easily win the argument on the basis they are getting het up over trivia.

Same here. Nobody responds to the paragraphs with quotes and discussions, not because I'm not worthy of response, but because they know I will stand my ground and defeat them with even more reasoned responses. ;)

The spirit of debate is dead, because the intelligence isn't there it would seem.

All your negative points regarding Mancini you can say the same for every manager ever lived..

 

[DD]

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotteli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

1- You need to say more than just 'tactics'. Bad tacticians do not win leagues.
2- Absolute rubbish. The list of players that have improved under Mancini is long
3- Balotelli is a squad player who starts very few games. He has been banned from playing and been fined in the past. On the pitch, Mancini lambasts Mario more than he ever does anyone else. Not really sure what your point is to be honest.
4- Our form in the league is good. Champs league is a different matter. You don't win every game and form is temporary. We won't know whether these draws against these teams are good or bad until the last game of the season.
5- Ridiculous discussion at this point of his management.
6- Rubbish. We generally have more possession and more shots in every single game we play in the league.
7- Your opinion. Doesn't really count tbh. Some games his tinkering works sometimes it doesn't but things musn't be going well in the first place for him to tinker with it.
8- Why's that then? If we had a different manager how would that have affected United getting 89 points? Or do you think we should have got 100 points? After all we only had 18 points more than the previous season...
9- I revert back to answer 6
10- No real arguments although I don't care how he did at Inter. Last season we did quite well all things considered but this season has been a disaster. Oh well, Europe is gone so isn't relevant anymore until the end of the season.

If that's the best you've got, I'd try again.

At last!:)

1) Tactics, as in slow football, not enough tempo, retreat like a losing army when the strength of our players could kill teams off, and changing our approach totally after "the manager will look at this and change" after QPR away.

2) It isn't rubbish. The likes of Yaya, Kompany, Lescott, Balotelli, Dzeko are not playing well, and even Aguero is a shadow of last season. They are collectively not performing as good as they should. The only real improver in his tenure has been Zabaleta. This season, we are not seeing some of our players at anywhere near the best. Many look dispirited to me.

3) The point is that the likes of Bellamy, Adebayor and Tevez were hung out to dry when they had naughty boys. I know I can't prove this but I do know that there are a lot of people pissed off with the special attention Mario gets. It's causing disharmony, and it especially pisses them off when they see him sulking, sat on his arse on the pitch when things don't go his way. he should have been shown the door ages ago. He might end up being the singlemost reason for it if Mancini gets him the sack. He's a disruption, he's a disease and Mancini shouldn't be indulging him.

4) We haven't really played that well on more than a couple of occasions. We haven't beaten any decent side bar Spurs.

5) It's not ridiculous and you know it's not. When you are given such resources, success is inevitable, even if you have a 35 year history of fuck ups.

6) I'll take that point, but, how often do we go 40 minutes before having a shot. If we went out against these teams earlier, maybe we wouldn't have drawn so many games. We showed too much respect for Chelsea and Everton in the last few weeks, and did so at the likes of Wigan and West Brom. They are games that could so easily have gone wrong but for a bit of individual class. It certainly wasn't the tactics that won them.

7) The fact that you have resorted to "your opinion doesn't count" suggests you actually think I have a point but don't want to accept it. The opinion might not count, but the points lost as a result of the pissing about with team selections and not finding a first choice team, will count at the end of the season.

8) I actually think that our personnel was that good that we would have won it by quite a few points. United's points total was good, but our slow, pedestrian, laboured, non-tempo, no risk tactics properly fucked us up over a long period of away games.

9) I revert to answer 8)

10) Agreed.

All in all, if that's the best you've got, I'd try again!:)

 

[reddishblue]

1) Tactics - especially on the road - unbeaten home and AWAY. Tell us where you think the tactics are wrong
2) Not getting the best out of players - some players have not been at their best granted, however a lot of this has been due to injuries. Judge them later in the season.
3) The way Balotelli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less - which other players? Do you always believe what you read in the press about Mario?
4) Our form against decent teams this season - Was Madrid away a bad performannce? Still unbeaten in the league, jeez.
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal - Having money and signing who you want to are different matters, until you see that this argument is pointless.
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players - concur to a slight degree. However I think a lot of this is due to lack of fitness within the side, most of our best players have been out for substantial times with injury.
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points. See above.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start - Is this the same manager that encouraged the players to win 6 games on the trot at the end of the season?
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter - how about a lot of players who had never played over an english winter before, the loss of Yaya to yhe ACN etc?
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league. - Last season we went out with 10 points, a result that would see you through 9 times out of 10. This season not so good but I am still proud of Mancini and the team.

 

[DD]

Again, the point is missed. Did we win the things because of Mancini or in spite of him? I think the latter.

You keep going back to this point as if it's the central basis of your argument.

Let's just break it down a bit, what you are claiming is that a man who the owners put their faith in and pay millions of pounds per year to pick the starting XI, choose the tactics and substitutions, coach and motivate the players is actually terrible at his job.

And despite being so bad, by some sheer miracle the players managed to overcome this entirely off their own backs and put in one of the ballsiest and dominating end of season runs in history to claim the Premier League Title all whilst being hindered by the man in charge of managing them.

Do you not realise how utterly fucking stupid that sounds? Really?

You should expand on the point of just how you think this miracle occurred, because at the moment it comes across as a meaningless (and ridiculous) soundbite from somebody who does not appear to have the first clue about how football works. Don't forget to include Mark Hughes in your answer with respect to the appalling performances that were occurring before Mancini arrived, I'm sure it will make fascinating reading.

The last six game run started when the shackles were off, and the league looked gone. The negative tactics of the previous away games were shook off at Norwich and Wolves.

The league would still have been lost had United not cocked up against Wigan and Everton. They handed the initiative back to us and, to be fair, we took it, eventually.

However, the point is that we would have blown a title that was ours for the taking all the way, had we not been handed some huge stroke of fortune when United hit the inside of the post at 4-2 against Everton. We took our second chance well but, given the quality of players we had, should it really have come to that? Of course it doesn't matter, because the name is on the trophy, but if you don't heed the lessons of history then you make for a potentially troubled future.

 

[franksinatra]

Plenty of people have responded, just not with a point of view that matches yours.

We won the Cup and the League is the sum total of reasoned response; along with the you're a dick approach, of course.

No-one has ever responded to individual points made about

1) Tactics - especially on the road

Tactics have been spot on during his tenure. Under the previous manager we never achieved the balance between defence and attack. Conceding three goals at home to the likes of Sunderland, Burnley or away at clubs like Bolton. Initially he shored up the defence resulting in less goals conceded. The following season this was continued playing Yaya off the main striker resulting in us achieving our target of a Champs league place and one of the best defensive records. In the summer Mancini commented to challenge for the Premiership we required more goals. Again the team evolved with the purchases of Aguero and Nasri but still achieved the defensive solidity required to win the league.


2) Not getting the best out of players

Vincent Kompany was playing as defensive midfield or as a substitute. Joe hart was playing for Birmingham. How have there careers progressed under Mancini? Lescott has gone from being a liability to an accomplished defender. David Silva has become a spanish regular chased by the Real Madrids of this world and by his own admission has played the best football of his career at City

3) The way Balotelli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less

I agree with this. I could accept it if he was producing incredible performances on the pitch.

4) Our form against decent teams this season

You have been very selective with your definition of 'decent teams'. Liverpool are a good side but Spurs and WBA are not?. Both are higher up the table than Liverpool but this doesn't support your argument so they are omitted.. We have played, with the exception of United, all the top sides and remain unbeaten.

5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal

Did he? Without question he had an excellent opportunity but still he was competing against established club with similar finances and yet in two season he has won both major domestic trophies. Yes he had an incredible amount of money but he has been successful with that money so how can you criticise?

6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players

I think you should take a look at possession stats involving City we regularly dominate games.

7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.

Again that is just your opinion. Managers make decisions based on information provide by sports scientists, fitness coaches we are not neccessarily privy too. Do managers make mistakes I am sure they do. Fergie rested a number of players and they lost at home to Blackburn last season. The secret isto the make the fewest, and as we won the league last year statistically it suggests he made the fewest.

8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start.

United didnt capitulate they lost one game and drew another and we beat them. It was hardly a capitulation and they recorded one of there highest points totals. Therefore it is unlikely and manager would have walked the league as United would have still recorded a huge number of points.


9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter

You are living in the past and hanging on to stereotypes about Italians. We got beaten by the likes of Swansea and Arsenal who completely outplayed us on the day. It wasnt due to Mancini playing negativel, they were just better than us. Sunderland we completly battered for ninety mins, Chelsea we dominated for long periods with the first twenty mins being some of the best football I have ever seen by a City side. Ridiculous to suggest we played negatively at the likes of Swansea after going to places like White Hart Lane and Old Trafford and attacking them from the outset particularly when we were fighting for the league. You need to look outside the box

10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

Yes can definitley do better but this is cup football and not an exact science. Even the mighty Real Madrid havent reached a final for 13 years. We have had two very tough groups.

There's probably more. I've asked these questions on so many occasions yet nobody ever says, "right, I think you are wrong and this is why you are wrong". It's "you're wrong because you are we won the league and the cup".

No-one has the nerve to answer each point in a civilised manner because they might get proved wrong, they don't want to and are putting their fingers into their ears shouting "la-la-la".

And no, I won't be on here tomorrow night, win, lose or draw, because I will be in the pub - if that's alright! ;)

-- Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:26 pm --

You don't deserve that your points be debated.

You can't. That's why. Admit it. :)

 

[DD]

1) Tactics - especially on the road - unbeaten home and AWAY. Tell us where you think the tactics are wrong - Points make prizes, not unbeaten records
2) Not getting the best out of players - some players have not been at their best granted, however a lot of this has been due to injuries. Judge them later in the season. See above reply to Jay
3) The way Balotelli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less - which other players? Do you always believe what you read in the press about Mario? See above answer
4) Our form against decent teams this season - Was Madrid away a bad performannce? Still unbeaten in the league, jeez. Real Madrid had 37 shots to our 10. We hae won 1 out of 11 against what I call the decent teams
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal - Having money and signing who you want to are different matters, until you see that this argument is pointless. See above answer
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players - concur to a slight degree. However I think a lot of this is due to lack of fitness within the side, most of our best players have been out for substantial times with injury. We did it for our spell of struggle last season too. When we didn't we were great. is there a lesson in that?
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points. See above. See above
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start - Is this the same manager that encouraged the players to win 6 games on the trot at the end of the season? See above
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter - how about a lot of players who had never played over an english winter before, the loss of Yaya to yhe ACN etc? See above
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league. - Last season we went out with 10 points, a result that would see you through 9 times out of 10. This season not so good but I am still proud of Mancini and the team. Last season we were unlucky. This season we were a comedy hall joke

 

[Damocles]

Feck it.

1) Tactics - especially on the road
2) Not getting the best out of players
3) The way Balotteli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less
4) Our form against decent teams this season
5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal
6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players
7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.
8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start
9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter
10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

1- You need to say more than just 'tactics'. Bad tacticians do not win leagues.
2- Absolute rubbish. The list of players that have improved under Mancini is long
3- Balotelli is a squad player who starts very few games. He has been banned from playing and been fined in the past. On the pitch, Mancini lambasts Mario more than he ever does anyone else. Not really sure what your point is to be honest.
4- Our form in the league is good. Champs league is a different matter. You don't win every game and form is temporary. We won't know whether these draws against these teams are good or bad until the last game of the season.
5- Ridiculous discussion at this point of his management.
6- Rubbish. We generally have more possession and more shots in every single game we play in the league.
7- Your opinion. Doesn't really count tbh. Some games his tinkering works sometimes it doesn't but things musn't be going well in the first place for him to tinker with it.
8- Why's that then? If we had a different manager how would that have affected United getting 89 points? Or do you think we should have got 100 points? After all we only had 18 points more than the previous season...
9- I revert back to answer 6
10- No real arguments although I don't care how he did at Inter. Last season we did quite well all things considered but this season has been a disaster. Oh well, Europe is gone so isn't relevant anymore until the end of the season.

If that's the best you've got, I'd try again.

At last!:)

1) Tactics, as in slow football

Subjectively bad.

not enough tempo,

The same thing as slow football.

retreat like a losing army when the strength of our players could kill teams off

Retreat = weasel word. Losing army = weasel word.

I don't even know what you point is here. Our players are better? That's nice. Chelsea are better than United for about a decade. Look how many titles both have won.

, and changing our approach totally after "the manager will look at this and change" after QPR away.

This never happened.

2) It isn't rubbish. The likes of Yaya, Kompany, Lescott, Balotelli, Dzeko are not playing well and even Aguero is a shadow of last season.

Subjective.

They are collectively not performing as good as they should.

No basis to base this comment on.

The only real improver in his tenure has been Zabaleta.

Enourmous cherrypicking or total failure of memory. Almost every player has improved under Mancini.

This season, we are not seeing some of our players at anywhere near the best. Many look dispirited to me.

Subjective. Presumes authority of opinion.

3) The point is that the likes of Bellamy, Adebayor and Tevez were hung out to dry when they had naughty boys.

Subjective. Ad-hoc fallacies.

I know I can't prove this

Admittance of subjectivity of opinion.

but I do know that there are a lot of people pissed off with the special attention Mario gets.

Argument to authority. Argument to ignorance.

It's causing disharmony,

Unsubstansiated.

and it especially pisses them off when they see him sulking, sat on his arse on the pitch when things don't go his way.

Cheery picking. Unsubstansiated. Subjective.

he should have been shown the door ages ago.

Subjective,.

He might end up being the singlemost reason for it if Mancini gets him the sack. He's a disruption, he's a disease and Mancini shouldn't be indulging him.

Ad Hominem. Argument from authority.

4) We haven't really played that well on more than a couple of occasions. We haven't beaten any decent side bar Spurs.

Subjective. Argument from authority.

5) It's not ridiculous and you know it's not. When you are given such resources, success is inevitable, even if you have a 35 year history of fuck ups.

Irrelevant nonense. And surely you mean "we".

6) I'll take that point, but, how often do we go 40 minutes before having a shot.

Irrelevant. Argument to conformity. Argument to popularis.

If we went out against these teams earlier, maybe we wouldn't have drawn so many games.

Subjective. Argumetn from ignorance. Ad-hoc fallacy.

We showed too much respect for Chelsea and Everton in the last few weeks and did so at the likes of Wigan and West Brom

Subjective. Argument from authority.

They are games that could so easily have gone wrong but for a bit of individual class.

Ad-hoc fallacy

It certainly wasn't the tactics that won them.

Argument from poor causality. Argument from ignorance. About seventy others.

7) The fact that you have resorted to "your opinion doesn't count" suggests you actually think I have a point but don't want to accept it. The opinion might not count, but the points lost as a result of the pissing about with team selections and not finding a first choice team, will count at the end of the season.

All of the above, resorting to ad hominem in desperation.

8) I actually think that our personnel was that good that we would have won it by quite a few points. United's points total was good, but our slow, pedestrian, laboured, non-tempo, no risk tactics properly fucked us up over a long period of away games.

Irrelevant conclusion.

9) I revert to answer 8)

10) Agreed.

All in all, if that's the best you've got, I'd try again!:)

As I say, your whole post is essentially bollocks, which is why you aren't getting the "intellectual debate" you want. The people smarter than you think you're an idiot and not worth arguing with.

 

[reddishblue]

You didn't even respond to my point on your first point, very much a smart arsed politicians answer, you should be on QT.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

5) It's not ridiculous and you know it's not. When you are given such resources, success is inevitable, even if you have a 35 year history of fuck ups.

Irrelevant nonense. And surely you mean "we".

The mask continues to slip.

 

[DD]

Thanks for the most civilised response yet.

1) Tactics - especially on the road

Tactics have been spot on during his tenure. Under the previous manager we never achieved the balance between defence and attack. Conceding three goals at home to the likes of Sunderland, Burnley or away at clubs like Bolton. Initially he shored up the defence resulting in less goals conceded. The following season this was continued playing Yaya off the main striker resulting in us achieving our target of a Champs league place and one of the best defensive records. In the summer Mancini commented to challenge for the Premiership we required more goals. Again the team evolved with the purchases of Aguero and Nasri but still achieved the defensive solidity required to win the league.

Some of the tactics have been right. Some not. However, the main thing for me is that we respect teams too much and we are too slow and ponderous to hurt teams at times. It's ok being defensive but sometimes we need to go out and get the game won. We have the personnel to dictate terms to others. Too often, we fear the other teams too much. Let them worry about us. We're good enough for that.


2) Not getting the best out of players

Vincent Kompany was playing as defensive midfield or as a substitute. Joe hart was playing for Birmingham. How have there careers progressed under Mancini? Lescott has gone from being a liability to an accomplished defender. David Silva has become a spanish regular chased by the Real Madrids of this world and by his own admission has played the best football of his career at City

The point really is about now. I don't think he is getting the best out of them now. Nasri is clearly wasted where he is. His best position at Arsenal was in the middle running at players. I actually think he has destroyed Lescott's confidence totally this season by pitching in Nastasic for his debut at Real.

3) The way Balotelli is allowed carte-blanche to do what he wants whilst other players were hung out to dry for less

I agree with this. I could accept it if he was producing incredible performances on the pitch.

Yep.

4) Our form against decent teams this season

You have been very selective with your definition of 'decent teams'. Liverpool are a good side but Spurs and WBA are not?. Both are higher up the table than Liverpool but this doesn't support your argument so they are omitted.. We have played, with the exception of United, all the top sides and remain unbeaten.

I think I mentioned earlier that Spurs were the one that we did beat. I don't actually think West Brom can be classed with the others despite their decent start.

5) The fact that he really did have it made for him with the money at his disposal

Did he? Without question he had an excellent opportunity but still he was competing against established club with similar finances and yet in two season he has won both major domestic trophies. Yes he had an incredible amount of money but he has been successful with that money so how can you criticise?

Course he did. We're the richest club in the world who has bought players to match that tag.

The questioning is about whether we are going to kick on and win more. I think we might be better off now with a manager who is going to do better our standards and do a job in Europe. My belief is that Mancini won't.

6) The point that we sometimes fear the opposition too much and don't impose ourselves on them despite us having better players

I think you should take a look at possession stats involving City we regularly dominate games.

I don't need possession stats. Possession can happen in containment. It doesn't mean going for wins and creating chances.

7) The tinkering with formations and personnel that I think is costing us points.

Again that is just your opinion. Managers make decisions based on information provide by sports scientists, fitness coaches we are not neccessarily privy too. Do managers make mistakes I am sure they do. Fergie rested a number of players and they lost at home to Blackburn last season. The secret isto the make the fewest, and as we won the league last year statistically it suggests he made the fewest.

Swapping the odd bit of personnel is fine. Wholesale changes and formation changes leads to confusion, players not knowing where they are etc. If we have a settled eleven then players almost telepathically know where each others are. Too many times I have seen players expecting another to be there and they're not. We need to know our first team for the big games. By all means change things around, but let's do like for like and get a set pattern of play. Or are we back to picking our team to stop the opponents playing again?

8) My belief that a decent manager would have walked the league last season without United having to capitulate, after we had totally frittered away a great start.

United didnt capitulate they lost one game and drew another and we beat them. It was hardly a capitulation and they recorded one of there highest points totals. Therefore it is unlikely and manager would have walked the league as United would have still recorded a huge number of points.

Blowing an eight point lead with six games to go when you have the games left that they had is a capitulation. City were 20-1 to win the title after the Arsenal game. That says everything. "Walked it" might have been an overstatement. "Won comfortably" would have been a better way for me to put it


9) The belief that his over-cautious approach cost us many away games over the last winter

You are living in the past and hanging on to stereotypes about Italians. We got beaten by the likes of Swansea and Arsenal who completely outplayed us on the day. It wasnt due to Mancini playing negativel, they were just better than us. Sunderland we completly battered for ninety mins, Chelsea we dominated for long periods with the first twenty mins being some of the best football I have ever seen by a City side. Ridiculous to suggest we played negatively at the likes of Swansea after going to places like White Hart Lane and Old Trafford and attacking them from the outset particularly when we were fighting for the league. You need to look outside the box

Can't agree. Arsenal, we didn't have a shot because of our slow tempo, our inability to get stuck in and a no risk approach. Swansea outplayed us, largely due to the same. Sunderland was nowhere near as impressive as made out, as we passed and passed and got nowhere for the vast majority of the game, and after Chelsea scored we retreated like a defeated cavalry and had long since decided to camp out on a draw before the sending off. The negative away performances came about after the big sulk following too many goals conceded, and especially after the 3-2 at QPR. David Platt as much as admitted after that game that there would be a change of approach and he was right.

10) The fact that his European record is an utter disgrace, with both Inter and City seriously underachieving compared to teams from the same country that finished below them in the league.

Yes can definitley do better but this is cup football and not an exact science. Even the mighty Real Madrid havent reached a final for 13 years. We have had two very tough groups.

No, but were ridiculously outplayed in most of those games, and that was a bigger concern than the results.

 

[DD]

As I say, your whole post is essentially bollocks, which is why you aren't getting the "intellectual debate" you want. The people smarter than you think you're an idiot and not worth arguing with.

Actually, we have now had some intelligent debate, thanks. Your dead end "you're a moron" quotes weren't part of it. It was just ten comments along the lines of your previous 'efforts'. Never mind. Intelligent life does exist and they don't need to resort to Latin phrases either. :)