Young British players should be a priority

[Leech]

You lost.

Why? We haven't left yet. And even if we do, I'll be for rejoining the EU. Until I die (and most likely that'll be after you and will therefore happen).

 

[Citymapper]

Why? We haven't left yet. And even if we do, I'll be for rejoining the EU. Until I die (and most likely that'll be after you and will therefore happen).

Doubt you will die after me. Nothing changes for normal people whether in or out of the EU just gives folk something to be hysterical about because there always has to be a something for people to be hysterical about.

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

I think any changes to the HG squad requirements will take a few years to be implemented, the main obstacle being the length of existing players contracts. Any abrupt changes to the current system would force almost every PL club to force players out and would at a stroke eliminate sell-on values. This would immediately be challenged, possibly in court, and we could possibly also expect TV companies to raise their voices in protest as they pay big bucks to the EPL in expectation of seeing world class players on their live broadcasts.

 

[Damocles]

You're making a fundamental mistake of applying educational thought to football.

I've got to say, out of every single thing every posted on Bluemoon, this is the single stupidest comment I've ever read. That's not an exaggeration either - the level of complete misunderstanding this has for almost every single facet of the subjects it raises it beyond belief. If you would have bashed your head on your keyboard at random, that would have made much more sense than this. You're not just wrong on this, you're not even wrong.

Luckily, 120 years of football coaching agrees.

No it doesn't. It doesn't at all. In fact it says that what you're saying is completely wrong.

 

[Damocles]

Sorry Damo, I agree with Shaelum. You can't teach everything it takes to be Messi to someone otherwise we'd have mini Messi clones everywhere. He just has it. You see videos of him at 8 or whatever and he's identical. He clearly then learned how to finely tune his skills through years of dedication and tutelage, but he's always been better than his peers from an impossibly young age. It's just as much a physical thing as it is a mental think. He thinks quicker, he reacts quicker and his body moves quicker - and it always has. His generic make-up clearly had a lot to do with it. Same way I'd never have been an Olympic sprinter even if I'd dedicated my whole life to it. I'm just not fast and never would be. It feels like Messi was born with that balance, poise and immense natural ability to just think quicker than everyone else.

So God did it then? Or there's a football gene? Because that's your only other options.

Oh and for the record, you're not fast because you don't know how to run. Luckily it's something that people are taught which is what sprinting coaches are for.

And do you know the amount of 8 year olds who are mini-Messis? There's thousands of 8 year old Messis. And by 8 years old, Lionel Messi had 4 years of professional coaching experience as well as 6ish years of playing with older semi/professional footballers

 

[twosips]

So God did it then?

Or there's a football gene?

Because that's your only other options.

No they are not, why dumb it down to 'football gene' and not just genes in general? There are definitely physical traits that some are born with genetically that make their likelihood of success in a sporting sense greater. If you're dead tall, you've got a fucking great chance at being better at basketball. If you're Michael Phelps with his exceptionally long body, you're probably gonna be better at swimming than most if you give it a go. Gymnasts tend to be better if they're smaller. Messi has seemingly had better poise, balance, reflexes and coordination than anyone of his age since he was a tiny kid! Unless you think his family just taught him how to move quicker and sharper using some kind of secret training technique that no one else has access to? Some kids are born faster than others. Some kids seem to learn quicker than others, some kids seem stronger than others. Yes, it still requires hard work and training, but to deny that is bollocks. We've all seen it. I was obsessed with footie as a kid, ran all day, never stopped playing sports. Then I knew kids who would play cricket for the first ever time and be better in about an hour than someone like me who had been playing it for years. It's almost like they simply had better instinctive coordination... "I'm just pretty good at most sports" is what they'd usually say.

How would you explain stuff like this?

"Two high jumpers make the case: the 2004 Olympic gold medalist Stefan Holm had trained for 20 years; the guy who beat him for gold at the 2007 world championships, Donald Thomas, took up the sport just eight months before the games."

It's almost like Donald Thomas was just naturally better. If everything Messi *is* was teachable, we'd have Messi clones everywhere. But we don't. I'm not having it that Messi just worked harder than everyone else therefore is better. That's a dumbing down almost American Dream type approach. It's unrealistic. Messi was phenomenal before Barca, a magnificent young player. Great will to succeed and obviously an exceptional trainer, but they all aren't. Aguero is apparently shite in training, was famously shite for years at looking after his own personal health (they had to ban him from drinking coca cola and playing games all night at Atletico) yet he's still one of the greatest we've ever seen on these shores....he works hard, sure, but he's hardly a freak of nature in terms of his desire. Let's not pretend that.

 

[twosips]

It's pretty much accepted fact now that someone's genetic makeup can make them more likely to be an exceptional sprinter. There are articles about everywhere, in this discussion piece by the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/32623320

Of course there also genetic variances that can make someone better at football and the physical traits that go with it.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/46/8/555.short

That's an interesting read from the British Journal of Sports Medicine. There are countless everywhere. It's literally how evolution works - some people are genetically better at certain things. Survival of the fittest and all that.

Edit - OBVIOUSLY im not downplaying the importance of education and training, plus hard work and desire. But i'm almost certain that those things alone will not make another Messi without the necessary genetic traits too.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I've got to say, out of every single thing every posted on Bluemoon, this is the single stupidest comment I've ever read. That's not an exaggeration either - the level of complete misunderstanding this has for almost every single facet of the subjects it raises it beyond belief. If you would have bashed your head on your keyboard at random, that would have made much more sense than this. You're not just wrong on this, you're not even wrong.



No it doesn't. It doesn't at all. In fact it says that what you're saying is completely wrong.

Funny, because your comedy essay of how Alladyce's Pro-Zone fuelled POMO approach was actually forward thinking was the most fundamental misunderstanding of modern football I've ever seen. Particularly given you put so much effort in to it.

I thought you were better than trying to strawman me and deliberately selectively quoting me to make it sound ridiculous and missing out the pertinent part of my post. You're clearlg a bright lad, you're quite capable of discussing the actual point as opposed to trying to turn it in to something it wasn't.

The point was, and you full well know it was, you can't teach any kid with an appetite for learning how to be as good as Lionel Messi, no matter how good the coaching is. If you want to address that point, crack on, but if you want to strawman, maybe try on someone silly enough to fall for it.

 

[twosips]

Oh and for the record, you're not fast because you don't know how to run. Luckily it's something that people are taught which is what sprinting coaches are for.

And do you know the amount of 8 year olds who are mini-Messis? There's thousands of 8 year old Messis. And by 8 years old, Lionel Messi had 4 years of professional coaching experience as well as 6ish years of playing with older semi/professional footballers

If I spent my whole life training to be a sprinter I'd still never reach the Olympics. Not even close. I'm not cut out for it and never will be. I was always more of a slow-twitch kinda muscle guy as opposed to a fast-twitch. I was great at long distance...sprinting? Nah.

And yeah, you're actually agreeing with me in a way. There are plenty born with similar natural tendencies, thousands probably, agreed, but there are god knows how many more without it. I also think you're slightly downplaying just how good Messi was at that age. I honestly believe you can't teach every kid to be Messi. Hard work simply *isn't* enough and there are countless scientific studies that back that up. Messi didn't join a professional club, Newells, until he was 8, he had coaching at a children's team from 5-8, like I did too actually. Like most football obsessed kids do as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10207981

According to his coaches, he was deemed special from the second he joined Grandoli. They improved him, im sure, as did Newells and Barca, but he was already well on his way to greatness in their eyes. His upbringing and coaching was hardly any different to any kids in that continent, or even over in Europe. A pretty normal Argentinian football obsessed upbringing for a kid by the sounds of it. He just always seemed *better*, and that's from the people who could take the credit for his development if they wanted to. Maybe it's his desire, but I think it's that and a natural aptitude that stemmed from his exceptional pace, balance and sharpness he inherited. Honed by playing, yeah of course, but fuck me, I never stopped playing football as a kid, like countless others, and I just never moved anywhere near as confidently as he did and does.

Some people are just better at things. Doesn't bother me, it's just life. He was obviously taught better too, but I highly doubt he's the only football obsessed kid to have that same level of quality coaching exposure...he obviously isn't. Bearing that in mind, there should be thousands upon thousands of mini messis around the age of 13 too, the age that Barca signed him. There wasn't then, and there aren't now either. Messi was special.

Some kids are walking by 6 months, some are sat on their arse until 20 months, through no fault of a parent's. Some people react quicker, some kids have better motor skills off the bat. I don't really think that's up for debate, and it's pretty obvious that that would help a kid be better at football. Messi almost certainly had exceptional motor skills and reaction times from the off - if he didn't he wouldn't have been wow'ing people that quickly.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

If I spent my whole life training to be a sprinter I'd still never reach the Olympics. Not even close. I'm not cut out for it and never will be. I was always more of a slow-twitch kinda muscle guy as opposed to a fast-twitch. I was great at long distance...sprinting? Nah.

It's worth mentioning that there are far more factors involved in being a good footballer than being a good sprinter. Which incidentally probably makes a player like Messi even rarer than top sprinters, because they have just the right combination of natural talents (for want of a better term) for a far more complex activity. But it means that natural sprinters are far easier to spot.

But getting back to the actual topic of the thread, there is no argument that British people are at some sort of genetic disadvantage compared to other countries of the world when it comes to football. The reason that England (population: 53 million) have a worse national team than Spain (46.5 million) is entirely down to player development.