Donald Trump

[steviemc]

"fair and democratic elections can never be wrong". I'm not sure whether this is frightening or just daft (discuss in relation to the Irish election in 1918, or whether the US electoral college is "fair").

I think you've mixed up de jure and de facto, but are you really suggesting that a democratically-elected but nasty leader (Hitler, Trump, Erdogan, Putin) is to be preferred to a benevolent dictatorship (not that there have been many)? Does getting elected make them not nasty?

You reckon the system (democracy?) is right - having just quoted a peace settled by Kennedy and Krushchev (a great democrat).

I'm with Damocles on this point. You can't change democracy just when it suits your whimsical self. We've seen this attitude taken apart recently - and good for it. Those abhorrent people (and I'm not suggesting you're one of these) that have a rather self-important snobberish belief that democracy works 'only as long as it agrees with me', is disgusting. It's about time this attitude was killed off.

The sooner this condescending ilk realise that they're only a little blot on the landscape of millions of others, the better. There are millions of others whose opinions may differ from yours or mine, yet their knowledge and understanding is just as valid. It's about time this attitude of 'I accept democracy - but not from people I don't think are as intelligent as me' is fucked off once and for all.

Vic, I sincerely hope you don't fall into this bracket - but if you do - then my comments apply to you as well.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I'm with Damocles on this point. You can't change democracy just when it suits your whimsical self. We've seen this attitude taken apart recently - and good for it. Those abhorrent people (and I'm not suggesting you're one of these) that have a rather self-important snobberish belief that democracy works 'only as long as it agrees with me', is disgusting. It's about time this attitude was killed off.

The sooner this condescending ilk realise that they're only a little blot on the landscape of millions of others, the better. There are millions of others whose opinions may differ from yours or mine, yet their knowledge and understanding is just as valid. It's about time this attitude of 'I accept democracy - but not from people I don't think are as intelligent as me' is fucked off once and for all.

Vic, I sincerely hope you don't fall into this bracket - but if you do - then my comments apply to you as well.

I think absolutism about what issues are decided by straight democracy (asking the people) as opposed to representatives is something to be careful of. If there was a worldwide vote of the citizenry as to whether or not Manchester United or Manchester City should be abolished, which would win? That's one thing Americans struggle with understanding Brexit. That such a universe-altering referendum would or could be subject to a simple majority vote is mind-bending -- and you're talking to a Californian who regularly has to decide on 20+ propositions (meaning ballot initiatives) every two years, including whether or not it should be mandatory that male porn performers wear condoms.

 

[Vic]

Given the USA's propensity for overthrowing democratically elected regimes they don't like and installing puppets (Pinochet, anyone?) I don't see much support there for the absolute supremacy of democracy.

All OK with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were we?

Cameron PM with a third of the vote, same as the Nazis in 1932.

Yes, democracy is never wrong.

 

[Danish Blue]

I'm with Damocles on this point. You can't change democracy just when it suits your whimsical self. We've seen this attitude taken apart recently - and good for it. Those abhorrent people (and I'm not suggesting you're one of these) that have a rather self-important snobberish belief that democracy works 'only as long as it agrees with me', is disgusting. It's about time this attitude was killed off.

The sooner this condescending ilk realise that they're only a little blot on the landscape of millions of others, the better. There are millions of others whose opinions may differ from yours or mine, yet their knowledge and understanding is just as valid. It's about time this attitude of 'I accept democracy - but not from people I don't think are as intelligent as me' is fucked off once and for all.

Vic, I sincerely hope you don't fall into this bracket - but if you do - then my comments apply to you as well.

People have changed democracy on a whim. The rise of the referendum is an example.

It was never the intention that we live in a pantisocracy and for good reason. Having arbitrary referendums for political gain in which a 50.1 per cent vote by the largely ill informed electorate can lead to changes in the fundamental rule of law are hardly the way forward.

 

[Damocles]

People have changed democracy on a whim. The rise of the referendum is an example.

It was never the intention that we live in a pantisocracy and for good reason. Having arbitrary referendums for political gain in which a 50.1 per cent vote by the largely ill informed electorate can lead to changes in the fundamental rule of law are hardly the way forward.

I think presuming people are too stupid to vote is one of the most patronising sentiments I've ever heard. People are fully entitled to self determination no matter what their level of education.

For the record, Switzerland manage to do it with little or no problems.

Given the USA's propensity for overthrowing democratically elected regimes they don't like and installing puppets (Pinochet, anyone?) I don't see much support there for the absolute supremacy of democracy.

All OK with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt were we?

Cameron PM with a third of the vote, same as the Nazis in 1932.

Yes, democracy is never wrong.

You were SO CLOSE to reading something correctly, but then at the last minute made a hard right turn and threw yourself into the bushes.

What I said is that fair and democratic elections can never be wrong. Comparing this to elections where blackshirts were hunting people at the polling booths is nonsense.

And yes the Freedom and Justice Party winning in Egypt was the right decision. Again, people are entitled to live under the social organization structures of their choosing whether you like it or not. That's what makes democracy great and the biggest driver of world peace in the history of our species. What wasn't ok is people outside Egypt declaring "that name sounds scary" then supporting a military coup that overthrew the democratically elected leader and replaced them with a bloodthirsty tyrant who almost immediately started shooting protestors dead and arresting his political opponents for "terrorism".

Sisi lost every independent poll among Egyptians in terms of voting intentions, then somehow managed to win the election 2 weeks later with a 94% majority. Incredible. And I don't mean that as a compliment, I mean that that is too incredible to believe. Now Egypt is ruled by an autocrat and political dissent is punished by death.

So yes, democracy was vastly superior to the shitshow that is currently taking place over there.

I think you've mixed up de jure and de facto,

I can assure you I've done no such thing, read the sentence again.

 

[west didsblue]

What I said is that fair and democratic elections can never be wrong.

Agree with that.

Do you think a system where a persons vote can be more valuable in one location than another and where a candidate with less votes can win be counted as fair.

 

[Damocles]

Agree with that.

Do you think a system where a persons vote can be more valuable in one location than another and where a candidate with less votes can win be counted as fair.

Yes, I think that as long as the rules are established and agreed beforehand and nobody is going in blind then it is a fair race.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I think presuming people are too stupid to vote is one of the most patronising sentiments I've ever heard. People are fully entitled to self determination no matter what their level of education.

Good thing Vic didn't say that then.
There's a difference between ill-educated and ill-informed.

 

[Damocles]

Good thing Vic didn't say that then.
There's a difference between ill-educated and ill-informed.

There's no difference when it comes to their right to vote.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

There's no difference when it comes to their right to vote.

There isn't, no.
But then Vic didn't say there was.