Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[mcfc1632]

I think it's hard for anybody to argue, federalist or not, that larger codependence in trade markets has put a dampner on warlike attitudes between countries even if you don't think it's the primary reason for lasting European peace which we currently enjoy.

You would not get an argument from many of that point of view - or at least you should not.

Indeed, I quote Monet and I do so as an example of, what I consider to be, the insidious manner in which sovereignty and controls have been transferred from nations to the EU, but I would also recognise the motivations for his approach were born from the direct experiences of what led to the first world war and then the second.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/how-the-first-world-war-inspired-the-eu/

In so many ways, I can recognise the validity of these strategies, but I cannot accept at all the manner in which the public has been lied to throughout the decades.

Heath might have had, in his mind, 'good intentions', but he was not straight with the UK public about the detail of the Treaty of Rome - nor Major on Maastricht. Even Brown's signing of the Lisbon Treaty was done in manner which suggested that he was not 'proud' of the event.

The UK public has not ever signed up to the EU superstate. With Juncker now clearly intent on an EU army and rattling sabres with Russia, I am certainly not having a feeling of being in a 'EU comfort blanket'.

Beyond the facts of the past, it is not just a feeling that we have been lied to and deceived that makes me so committed to leaving the EU. It is the inevitable failings that will, IMO, occur in the coming years as a result of the EU's over-stretching that makes me clear that the UK's best interests are served by leaving.

 

[mcfc1632]

Put it this way: you would struggle to find an original source for it. Monnet certainly reckoned (in 1952) that avoiding European wars would be more likely without nation states competing for resources - but using a fake quote 60 years later to bolster EUphobia is rather Trumpian.

Well, I did state that it is considered by some to be ".....an amalgam of his stated views...." and then went on to give examples of 'actual quotes' which project exactly the spirit of that 'amalgam quote'.

So it is less an attempt "to bolster EUphobia", but clearly setting out the intentions of the EU architects not just 60 - 70 years ago, but how these have been enshrined in the actions taken by the EU leaders ever since from Delors to Juncker to be in effect in 2017.

"..........the idea that Monnet put at the heart of the “project” from 1950 onwards, modelling his “government of Europe” on precisely the same four institutions that made up the League of Nations – a commission, a council of ministers, a parliament and a court. Thus, step by step over decades, Monnet’s technocratic dream has come to pass............"

So, there is indeed validity in mentioning the stated intentions of Monet - because it is precisely the governance structure he designed to ensure that Europe would be ruled without the need to involve people as coarse as the 'citizens' that has been insidiously implemented through the treaties.

Now if you want to get into 'fanciful' discussions on facts from the past to "to bolster EUphobia", then read the article below. This does not reflect the views that drive my desire to leave the EU - my reasons are earthed into the events of recent years and the future - but it will make some 'wonder' about just who has been driving the bus.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2016/07/02/the-eu-architects-nazis-and-nazi-collaborators.html

 

[mcfc1632]

Having a declared federal goal isnt the same thing as genuinely wanted to complete the process of turning the EU into a federal state. Ever increasing integration is simply a euphemism for forcing the smaller countries to align their laws,institutions and economic policies with Germany and France.

But they will never complete the final step of full political integration because to do that in any remotely democratic way, where a Greek vote carries a similar weight to German vote, would result in a huge transfer of power from the richer nations to the poorer nations, which will never happen.

Its a utopian dream that nobody, bar a few bureaucrats, want to turn into a reality.

I agree it will not be 'full integration' in the purest sense - there will of course be a leading nation or two - obviously Germany supported by France.

Germany and France have been directing the journey since the 50s, people should perhaps read up on Konrad Adenauer and Jean Monet and we have never been a central player - although our funding has been helpful.

The likes of Greece, Portugal etc. will be 'tied in' to supporting the direction through debt.

 

[Magicpole]

These negotiations will be drawn out and ultimately disappointing to all sides due to compromise and fudge.

I propose a much simpler, winner takes all, May v Merkel showdown.

A drinking competition that ends with a drunken no holds barred brawl, in a fighting cage. Breaks for adverts and a panel of seasoned bar brawlers discussing tactics, strategy and predicting possible scenarios that may unfold.

If May wins we get to sell our stuff at double the price, go there without a visa and all our drinks are free and women are drugged to make us look handsome, women get men similarly drugged. Shouting and pointing is welcomed and indeed encouraged.

If Merkel triumphs, mullets will be compulsory and breakfast has to include cold meat. We also have to divert the £350m a week we are currently using to save the NHS and spend it on German sausage and lederhosen. The national anthem will undergo a Polka makeover and Nigel Farage is forced to marry a British woman and live in Wigan dressed as a mouse.

It's the only credible solution.

 

[blueonblue]

I think it's hard for anybody to argue, federalist or not, that larger codependence in trade markets has put a dampner on warlike attitudes between countries even if you don't think it's the primary reason for lasting European peace which we currently enjoy.

Or perhaps its just that wars are being fought differently now ?, the reason for war is usually to steal hard assets no matter what the politicians claim, the c*nts behind it is going to make a lot of money.

Start off with a "Trade agreement" then bribe the politicians to give away more and more powers till you are writing the laws and can do as you please.

Rather than have to buy tanks and expensive ammunition's simply get yourself a printing press and a few bits of paper, lets call it the "Euro", get a load of countries in with promises of parity on their currency (Knowing full well its not), then when they can not pay (As you knew they could not) grab all the hard assets.

Now lets look at you definition of "Peace", almost every European country has armed police and in many cases the army on the streets, you can not travel freely without constant and intrusive checks and are under surveillance in every walk of life, we have the war on terror, the war on drugs, and violence in the streets as a direct result of what the politicians have or are about to do.

Then just for good measure take a proper look at just who is picking the fight in the Ukraine (And the reasons behind that is money), its not Russia that started moving troops and missiles up to the EU borders.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Reading the Independent website and yesterday they reported the Michael Gove was urging that after we leave the EU we can scrap and / or change laws over animal welfare and testing that are holding the UK pharmaceutical industry back and environmental laws that impact on our ability to build in environmentally sensitive areas.

Is he looking to be sectioned FFS? I mean the Tory shires will welcome a change in the laws so that new estates can be chucked up on protected land round their lovely leafy villages - those that aren't blighted by HS2 that is - real vote winner. And as for going back to cages full of beagles smoking fags doesn't he quite get that if we leave the EU and want t continue trading with them our goods will have to be produced to the EU standards? Can't imagine the French or Germans being happy to have their markets flooded with cheap UK cosmetics - especially when they are probably "unsafe"!

 

[sir baconface]

These negotiations will be drawn out and ultimately disappointing to all sides due to compromise and fudge.

I propose a much simpler, winner takes all, May v Merkel showdown.

A drinking competition that ends with a drunken no holds barred brawl, in a fighting cage.

Will they, erm, have any clothes on?

Excuse me for a minute or two...

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

Nothing to worry about, it's all part of the game...
http://www.cityam.com/261687/war-gaming-brexit-prepare-canada-style-deal-nothing

 

[smudgedj]

Reading the Independent website and yesterday they reported the Michael Gove was urging that after we leave the EU we can scrap and / or change laws over animal welfare and testing that are holding the UK pharmaceutical industry back and environmental laws that impact on our ability to build in environmentally sensitive areas.

Is he looking to be sectioned FFS? I mean the Tory shires will welcome a change in the laws so that new estates can be chucked up on protected land round their lovely leafy villages - those that aren't blighted by HS2 that is - real vote winner. And as for going back to cages full of beagles smoking fags doesn't he quite get that if we leave the EU and want t continue trading with them our goods will have to be produced to the EU standards? Can't imagine the French or Germans being happy to have their markets flooded with cheap UK cosmetics - especially when they are probably "unsafe"!

Gove talking sense who would have thought it. Nothing wrong about testing on animals. I'd go further and remove any ethic problems about the CRISPR technology and human embryos.

 

[Bewar3them00n]

Ironic, that parts of The UK that voted for Brexit may well be those hardest hit.
Whatever happens, (or you could argue it's already happening with the slide of the pound) it won't be a clear cut exit.