Israel-Palestine Conflict

[Postman Pep]

I read that this is the largest single such seizure of land since the Oslo Accords: it's so, so obvious to anyone who isn't deluding themselves that Israel is currently pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing in both Gaza and the West Bank. It's much more violent in the former case, obviously, but the overall dynamics are the same: take as much land as possible while arranging to have as few Palestinians as possible living on it.

Important point about Oslo. Reveals how genuine Israel was about a *viable* 2 solution back then and how it sowed the seeds for the government of today.

In fact, as the Oslo Accords slowly broke down, Israel tripled its settlement building. Between 1993 and 2000, the Israeli population in the West Bank reached its fastest pace of growth ever, according to Dror Etkes, an Israeli peace campaigner.

Today, the Israeli government is dominated by far-right religious and ultranationalist politicians who have close ties to the settlement movement. In recent months, they have approved thousands of new homes in settlements in the occupied West Bank.

In fact, according to the left-wing Israeli movement Peace Now, Israel this year set a record for its settlement approvals, with at least 12,855 settler housing units approved since January.

What were the Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestinians?

Three decades after the first Oslo Accord was signed, the peace process it promised has not come about.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I read that this is the largest single such seizure of land since the Oslo Accords: it's so, so obvious to anyone who isn't deluding themselves that Israel is currently pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing in both Gaza and the West Bank. It's much more violent in the former case, obviously, but the overall dynamics are the same: take as much land as possible while arranging to have as few Palestinians as possible living on it.

The plan all along?

 

[SebastianBlue]

From a simple search on the Internet.

"One-state debate since 1999, According to the same poll, 66% of Jewish Israelis preferred the two-state solution. Some Israeli government spokespeople have also proposed that Palestinian-majority areas of Israel, such as the area around Umm el-Fahm, be annexed to the new Palestinian state."

This text is from the ‘One-state Solution’ Wikipedia entry and refers to a Poll Index by the Isreal Democracy Institute from March 2010 (the page for which is no longer available via the citation on Wikipedia).

No reasonable observer would class that index as relevant to current events or discussion, especially as polling over the last few months indicates that a far lower share of Israelis likely support a two- or one-state solution feature full Palestinian autonomy, and a large portion not only currently support the military operations and far-right government approach in Gaza, but also the illegal settler violence, expansion of settlements, and annexation of territory in the West Bank, despite overwhelmingly disapproving of Netanyahu himself.

I think this article provides some insight in to that seeming dissonance (as well as stats from recent polls which paint quite a different picture to the March 2010 state of opinion amongst Israelis).

Netanyahu is unpopular at home. But not for the reasons US lawmakers are turning on him​

Most Israelis support their PM’s overarching goals in Gaza over Biden’s, but they don’t necessarily agree with the way he is pursuing victory, and some want early elections​

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-unpopular-at-home-but-not-for-the-reasons-us-lawmakers-are-turning-on-him/amp/

Edited to add a direct link to the Wikipedia entry and clean up the original text of my post.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Palerider]

This text is from the ‘One-state Solution’ Wikipedia entry and refers to a Poll Index by the Isreal Democracy Institute from March 2010 (the page for which is no longer available via the citation on Wikipedia).

No reasonable observer would class that index as relevant to current events or discussion, especially as polling over the last few months indicates that a far lower share of Israelis likely support a two- or one-state solution feature full Palestinian autonomy, and a large portion not only currently support the military operations and far-right government approach in Gaza, but also the illegal settler violence, expansion of settlements, and annexation of territory in the West Bank, despite overwhelmingly disapproving of Netanyahu himself.

I think this article provides some insight in to that seeming dissonance (as well as stats from recent polls which paint quite a different picture to the March 2010 state of opinion amongst Israelis).

Netanyahu is unpopular at home. But not for the reasons US lawmakers are turning on him​

Most Israelis support their PM’s overarching goals in Gaza over Biden’s, but they don’t necessarily agree with the way he is pursuing victory, and some want early elections​

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-unpopular-at-home-but-not-for-the-reasons-us-lawmakers-are-turning-on-him/amp/

Edited to add a direct link to the Wikipedia entry and clean up the original text of my post.

Thanks for that, interesting read. You are right of course, 2010 is a long time ago and views have obviously changed. It will be interesting what history makes of the reasons for the October 7th attack which to most people was military suicide and was only going to go one way. Without that attack there would have been a fairly long period of peace between the two peoples and with peace grows respect and realisation that the other side may not be as bad as first thought. Perhaps the environment for a two state negotiation was appearing and that thought was poison to the one state devotees. I'm fairly comfortable, that given peace and mutual trust, that two thirds of both sides would be happy with a two state solution. However, the other third on each side appear to be complete lunatics and it's difficult to see how you can control them.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[BayernMan]

 

[KPXBLN]

The plan all along?

Well, Israel has been building settlements in the West Bank since they started occupying it in 1967, and the logic of the settlements (take the land, kick out the people) is the same logic of the 1948 Nakba, so in that sense its a very long term dynamic. As for what's happening in Gaza - they said on day one that they were going to starve the people and they are doing exactly that. So in that sense, yeh.

 

[Palerider]

Regardless of what Israeli's prefer, how do you get to that end goal? It isn't true that Israel merely just needs to grant it and that's that. The Israeli government is not the only component stopping a two state solution. A two state solution requires a negotiation involving coherent demands on the part of two calm and sensible sides

I've always respected the work of the diplomats and whenever I see them interviewed they always come across as both clever and genuinely concerned. I'm certain that if there was even a glimmer of hope of a permanent, mutually satisfactory solution that they would snatch your hands off. I think it's fairly obvious that the two sides are nowhere near compatible at present. It would be beneficial, I think, for the diplomats to give us, the rest of the world, information on just where each side sits regarding negotiations. That way we could all put pressure on any 'unreasonable' party.

Israel is currently at war with an organisation that does not want a two state solution and is propped up by countries that believe that Israel should not exist. Can the Palestinians vote out the Iranian government, Hezbollah or Hamas who all have a state aim to end Israel? How can any negotiation therefore ever succeed?

Good points. I suppose the Palestinians would also say that the USA are perhaps not entirely neutral. So many dominos to consider. Perhaps if Israel and Palestine agreed mutually that they would act independently and not tolerate military inerference from other countries? I do accept your point that negotiating with groups who want you dead may not be optimal to say the least.

Obviously Israel does not want a two-state solution either but that is just on the part of the Netanyahu government and at least the government in Israel can be voted out.

I agree. Much easier for Israel to get to the starting line for a two state negotiation than Palestine who seem in the grip of gangsters with no way to vote them out.

All in all, I think October 7th and subsequent events have put back meaningful discussions by 20 years which perhaps was the aim all along.

 

[robbieh]

'All in all, I think October 7th and subsequent events have put back meaningful discussions by 20 years which perhaps was the aim all along.'


I think you are obviously not reading some of the posts above. If it wasn't obvious to you before you should now understand that Israel has never wanted a two state solution.
It's always been in their gift rather than the Palestinians who do not have the ear of the US. But they've never tried to move in that direction. In fact the constant bulldozing of Palestinian homes, illegal settlements just shows that they intended to go on breaking international law while they could.

In fact your final assessment could be the complete opposite. Had October 7th never happened Netanyahu and subsequent governments could just merrily continue expanding Israel.

Now however I think due to the vastly disproportionate response the pendulum of world opinion is swinging against them. A solution will, indeed must, be found.