Donald Trump

[vonkeynotvenky]

That being said members of the kkk are sub human scum bags that really shouldn't be breathing the same air as the rest of us.

I have said as much but it's not good enough mate I have stated numerous times I dislike Nazis it seems to be the disliking Antifa that got the heckles up.

 

[pirate]

To be fair I don't know for sure but I don't think there will be that many statues of Robert E Lee in any Northern states either. And Lincoln did offer him command of the Union armies.Although a slave owner he thought the practise evil or so history says.

if you are talking about Robert E Lee, then no it doesnt.
There has been some revisionist historians that have tried to paint him that way, but it seems unlikely from what I have read.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I have said as much but it's not good enough mate I have stated numerous times I dislike Nazis it seems to be the disliking Antifa that got the heckles up.

What about the antifa ideology -- not the actions in the name of antifa, the ideology -- do you dislike? That's where I get confused.

If I'm a devout Christian, I can be very supportive of and guide my life by His ideology, without giving credence to the horrible actions committed by others in His name.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

What about the antifa ideology -- not the actions in the name of antifa, the ideology -- do you dislike? That's where I get confused.

If I'm a devout Christian, I can be very supportive of and guide my life by His ideology, without giving credence to the horrible actions committed by others in His name.

It's the violence I don't like mate, the violence from Antifa ( I take your point about the message is different) is disgraceful. The KKK and quite obviously Nazis, real Nazis are vile and their message is wrong. Whilst I think walking round with a pointy hat or a Nazi tin lid on is disgusting considering the past of the west I'm not a fan of the communist flag and what that entails. Socialism I get because I consider myself to be a conservative socialist but what I don't get is violence.
Democracy has to be for all and if we allow one to speak then we must allow all to speak without it falling into violence and for both extreme groups to take centre stage and silencing the views of the middle ground.

 

[i kne albert davy]

if you are talking about Robert E Lee, then no it doesnt.
There has been some revisionist historians that have tried to paint him that way, but it seems unlikely from what I have read.

We'll probably never know the truth of it as he's been dead for getting on for a 150 years and everything's written in hindsight, what is fairly clear he was against the southern states leaving the union. But being loyal to his state he fought for the South and was a brilliant commanding officer in the wrong cause but he didn't think so at the time. If they'd won two America's not quite so powerful may not have been that bad.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

It's the violence I don't like mate, the violence from Antifa ( I take your point about the message is different) is disgraceful. The KKK and quite obviously Nazis, real Nazis are vile and their message is wrong. Whilst I think walking round with a pointy hat or a Nazi tin lid on is disgusting considering the past of the west I'm not a fan of the communist flag and what that entails. Socialism I get because I consider myself to be a conservative socialist but what I don't get is violence.
Democracy has to be for all and if we allow one to speak then we must allow all to speak without it falling into violence and for both extreme groups to take centre stage and silencing the views of the middle ground.

So this is the crux. The world is upset because while Trump decried the actions of both sides, he didn't decry the ideology of the side that is fundamentally anti-American and anti-human, which antifa's basic anti-Fascist ideology is not. Actions vs. ideology is a crucial distinction and in my view is the responsibility for the President to make verbally (and far more important, actually believe). In addition, those towing the "both sides at fault" line should make it too IMO.

Moreover, many people have empathy (if not support for) using violence to stop the potential coalescence or spread of an anti-American, anti-human ideology. You object to that empathy, but I do understand that perspective, though I may not agree with it.

Like you, I am a staunch anti-extremist if for no other reason than extremism on either side becomes totalitarianism at a faster and faster rate the farther one moves down the stringency curve at either end. Anyway, fair enough -- we understand each other though we may disagree.

 

[west didsblue]

So this is the crux. The world is upset because while Trump decried the actions of both sides, he didn't decry the ideology of the side that is fundamentally anti-American and anti-human, which antifa's basic anti-Fascist ideology is not. Actions vs. ideology is a crucial distinction and in my view is the responsibility for the President to make verbally (and far more important, actually believe). In addition, those towing the "both sides at fault" line should make it too IMO.

Well said. Why's that so hard for the likes of Venky to understand?

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

So this is the crux. The world is upset because while Trump decried the actions of both sides, he didn't decry the ideology of the side that is fundamentally anti-American and anti-human, which antifa's basic anti-Fascist ideology is not. Actions vs. ideology is a crucial distinction and in my view is the responsibility for the President to make verbally (and far more important, actually believe). In addition, those towing the "both sides at fault" line should make it too IMO.

Moreover, many people have empathy (if not support for) using violence to stop the potential coalescence or spread of an anti-American, anti-human ideology. You object to that empathy, but I do understand that perspective, though I may not agree with it.

Like you, I am a staunch anti-extremist if for no other reason than extremism on either side becomes totalitarianism at a faster and faster rate the farther one moves down the stringency curve at either end. Anyway, fair enough -- we understand each other though we may disagree.

When it's all stripped down there's room for some consensus no matter how small and the biggest hurdles can be overcome with discussion at the very least a respect of views. The extreme groups of left and right have hijacked any debate that is to be had and we've got to solve that, I too respect your views mate and have understood your points with some empathy.

 

[bluetev]

Imagine seeing thousands of Neo-Nazis displaying swastikas, Nazi hand signs, clearly carrying guns, saying Jewish and African American slurs....and believing it's Lefties that were in the wrong.

Imagine thousands of normal, non-nazi people protesting, as is their right, and then being set upon by leftie fascist thugs intent on silencing dissenting views through violence, and then justifying that violence because a minority of the protestors were neo Nazis

 

[west didsblue]

Imagine thousands of normal, non-nazi people protesting, as is their right, and then being set upon by leftie fascist thugs intent on silencing dissenting views through violence, and then justifying that violence because a minority of the protestors were neo Nazis

Why would anyone want to imagine that?