Donald Trump

[SebastianBlue]

I profoundly disagree with his politics but Reagan was a decent person imo, in a way that Trump never has been and never can be.

I am not sure I would classify Reagan as a decent person generally.

He was deeply racist (to the point of opposing the Civil Rights movement and wanting to dismantle the various legislation and systems enacted in the 60s and 70s to codify and protect the rights of non-white people; he also privately consistently espoused horrifically racist views), extremely sexist (he very much believed women were and should be subservient to men and regularly derided feminism and female-empowerment), regularly outright lied and maliciously fabricated stories for personal and political gain (some of it with very real consequences for others, which he—by most accounts—cared little about), and had even considered making George Wallace his running mate for a time because they agreed on so many topics (and he thought Wallace could win enough “old party” Democrats to his side to put him over). If you ever say to yourself “you know, George Wallace and I have a lot in common, I wonder if he’d want to run for the presidency with me”, you should probably pause and ask yourself “am I the baddie?”

Was Reagan “decent” compared to Trump in some ways? Sure.

Then again, even Nixon is “decent” compared to Trump in some ways.

But, if we are honest, that’s like saying drinking piss is decent compared to eating shite.

On the continuum of ‘degenerate to decent’, I think Reagan is firmly right of centre and much closer to Trump than many realise. Which actually makes sense, given much of Trump’s private behaviour—and now public persona, rhetoric, and actions—were/are largely made possible by Reagan’s groundwork for creating the modern right and far-right in America (and business conditions that allowed him to defraud his way to the top).

I definitely recommend listening to the podcast to get a better sense of who Reagan actually was. So much of the narrative of him as a person and political entity has been distorted, revised, or fabricated to hide so many problematic (even horrific) elements of his personality and belief system.

That obviously happens with many public figures, especially after death, but he belongs to the lofty echelon of those that have been essentially defied by a large number of people.

Something Trump has most certainly capitalised on. He even stole Make America Great Again from Reagan.

 

[BrianW]

I’m old enough to remember when the National Anthem was played in UK cinemas at the end of the day. Some people stayed behind standing to attention.

Ah, but the trick was to sneak out before it was played. If you were caught halfway out it was like a game of statues.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

But, if we are honest, that’s like saying drinking piss is decent compared to eating shite.

From someone who is as intelligent as you are, this surprises me, and scares me some.

It’s nothing like saying that.

Trump is uniquely evil, depraved, amoral and narcissistic relative to any and all past leaders of this nation. If that isn’t the narrative we all go into the voting booth with, regardless of political proclivity, how much hope do we have of defeating him?

Anyhow, feel free to rewind the tape. I’m going to focus on the problem at hand.

And incidentally, 40 years from now, when we rewind the Trump tape as you’re doing Reagan, I predict we’re going to find out he is far, far worse than any of us dream.

 

[SebastianBlue]

From someone who is as intelligent as you are, this surprises me, and scares me some.

It’s nothing like saying that.

Trump is uniquely evil, depraved, amoral and narcissistic relative to any and all past leaders of this nation. If that isn’t the narrative we all go into the voting booth with, regardless of political proclivity, how much hope do we have of defeating him?

Anyhow, feel free to rewind the tape. I’m going to focus on the problem at hand.

And incidentally, 40 years from now, when we rewind the Trump tape as you’re doing Reagan, I predict we’re going to find out he is far, far worse than any of us dream.

I have the same narrative as you regarding Trump, you just think much more highly of Reagan, the originator of the MAGA movement (and many other highly problematic trends in the US and beyond), than I do.

Reagan was much more destructive to America and the world than many are willing to admit, largely because of the deification within the extreme conservative movement (as he cemented their control over the Republican Party, at a time when it looked like GOP was on verge of ceasing to exist, and thus their power, which they built on since). His legacy has been distorted and wildly romanticised.

He was able to enact many, many terrible policies and carried out many horrible actions, and was not a particularly great person himself. And it is extremely unlikely Trump ever becomes president without Reagan paving the way for the MAGAifcation of the Republican Party, including originally using the campaign phrase as a dog whistle.

Trump is worse, we agree on that. But I think we disagree on the size of the gap between them on the “good to bad actor” continuum.

Surprised you would question my intelligence for that.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

I have the same narrative as you regarding Trump, you just think much more highly of Reagan, the originator of the MAGA movement (and many other highly problematic trends in the US and beyond), than I do.

Reagan was much more destructive to America and the world than many are willing to admit, largely because of the deification within the extreme conservative movement (as he cemented their control over the Republican Party, at a time when it looked like GOP was on verge of ceasing to exist, and thus their power, which they built on since). His legacy has been distorted and wildly romanticised.

Surprised you would question my intelligence for that.

I’m not questioning your intelligence for sure. I’m questioning your comparative, and your focus. Let’s start with why these men chose to serve. The comparative stops there. Anything difference/similarities after that fail to be as relevant or as important as that IMO.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I’m not questioning your intelligence for sure. I’m questioning your comparative, and your focus. Let’s start with why these men chose to serve. The comparative stops there. Anything else after that is pretty irrelevant IMO.

Reagan unleashed the Christian Nationalists.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Reagan unleashed the Christian Nationalists.

Why did Reagan choose to serve? Why did Trump?

And I’d say Newt Gingrich was more influential strategically in that regard, but again — doesn’t matter to the current situation at hand.

 

[SebastianBlue]

100% agree.

Trump is simply all about Trump and wants to stay in power no matter what. The fucker tried to subvert a free and fair election. And he gives fuck-all for human lives - COVID was simply an issue to exploit. He said what his followers wanted to believe - even when it was patently untrue and continued to do so even when he himself caught COVID and likely would have died if not for medical intervention.

Trump is not an intellectual. He comes across as a fucking idiot - I suspect, though, that he is actually pretty intelligent (his family is full of very smart, successful individuals) but is lazy and doesn't care to know about numerous issues. Trump seems to know virtually nothing of science, politics, and history - and moreover, doesn't seem to care.

Nixon - lumped into the same Trump-like category by SebastianBlue - is a different animal entirely. Nixon did care about people. He moved to end the Vietnam War during his terms in office; with the help of Kissinger, he established relations with China. Should cordial relations with China still exist, perhaps we wouldn't be in the behind-the-scenes war with them.

Nixon, though, was like Trump in his desire to hold on to power, even if it meant breaking the law.

Finally Reagan - he too did care about people, although he was very conservative. Reagan was not in the same ballpark intellectually as Nixon. Very, very few are (curiously, both Clintons, Obama, and JF Kennedy, and probably Carter), were/are all way above average intelligence.

Trump is nothing at all like Nixon or Reagan. Trump is a transactional, self-centered, bastard, who cares for nothing at all except himself.

I haven’t lumped anyone in to a “Trump-like category”, and implying I did is intellectually dishonest.

Also, actually tag me in if you are going to respond to (and misrepresent) my argument.

As for the rest of your post, it shows a distinct lake of knowledge of American political history so it is probably best we don’t enter a debate, as we aren’t on the same footing for understanding of what has come before.

Feel free to put me on ignore again.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Why did Reagan choose to serve? Why did Trump?

And I’d say Newt Gingrich was more influential strategically in that regard, but again — doesn’t matter to the current situation at hand.

Reagan chose to serve because he liked the spotlight, despised the Civil Rights movement, and wanted to install a White Christian Nationalist government in America.

And he did a decent job of it, even saving the GOP in the process.

Much of the state of the Republican Party now, and the rise of Trump, is only possible because of Reagan’s “Let’s Make America Great Again”. It wasn’t even really a “right” party until he took hold.

I really encourage you to listen to the podcast series from Ben Bradford or read the work of Daniel K. Williams on Reagan and the rise of the modern Christian Right (“Moral Majority”).

There is so much romanticisation and sanitisation of Reagan’s platform and presidency (even ignoring the economic damage he did to the US and beyond), even in this thread.

I mean, he admired and almost asked George Wallace to be his running mate. That should give you pause.

We agree Trump is much worse, but Reagan was also very bad, especially as Trump would likely not have been president without Reagan MAGAifying the GOP (and even a large portion of the democrats at that time).

 

[VinceYoungisaBLUE]

From someone who is as intelligent as you are, this surprises me, and scares me some.

It’s nothing like saying that.

Trump is uniquely evil, depraved, amoral and narcissistic relative to any and all past leaders of this nation. If that isn’t the narrative we all go into the voting booth with, regardless of political proclivity, how much hope do we have of defeating him?

Anyhow, feel free to rewind the tape. I’m going to focus on the problem at hand.

And incidentally, 40 years from now, when we rewind the Trump tape as you’re doing Reagan, I predict we’re going to find out he is far, far worse than any of us dream.

Although Reagan was a piece of shit from the lens of today, I think he genienuly wanted to do what he thought was best for the people that elected him. Yes, he was racist, sexist, and anti-progress but so were 70% of the population at that point, things changed for the better.

Trump on the other hand is purely motivated by self-preservation and self-enrichment, nothing else.