Israel-Palestine Conflict

[KS55]

My gran used to say they need a big bomb dropping on the whole region. My lefty younger self used to argue with her about it. And stupidly thats exactly where the Israelis are taking this conflict. Maybe not this generation but it will happen soon.

I have jokingly suggested that a giant wall is built round the whole area and nobody is allowed out until agreement has been reached. Where is Trump when you need him?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Next: Why A2 benefits US school children. Put that chainsaw down!

A2 is outdated and guns should be far more regulated than they are. As a law-abiding professional with Federal firearms training, there is almost no scenario under which I would not have access to a firearm, so it really doesn’t affect me, but there are definitely people it should restrict.

Key statistics regarding gun ownership in America:

- There are approximately 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the U.S.

- An estimated 82,880,000 people in the U.S. own at least one firearm as of 2023

- 32% of Americans personally own a gun, while 43% of households have at least one firearm.

There are a lot of people with 1 firearm and a handful of people with more than you can imagine. That’s a problem!

Americans should need hoops and training to own a firearm (handgun or shotgun) for home defence. Thereafter, it should be much, much harder to own, with liability an integral part of the equation.

2A is a third rail issue. Republicans say Dems will take guns away, so rural folks and 2A zealots will never vote D, while Republicans created the strongest gun legislation in decades when Saint Ronnie of Simi was shot by Hinckley outside the Washington Hilton! Go figure!

It’s almost as intractable as Israel-Palestine!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

My gran used to say they need a big bomb dropping on the whole region. My lefty younger self used to argue with her about it. And stupidly thats exactly where the Israelis are taking this conflict. Maybe not this generation but it will happen soon.

One could create a lot of glass in a hurry if one went that route!

 

[Bigga]

Egypt's had enough...

 

[Luddite_Blue]

What's happening to detained Palestinians is just going to be another Abu Ghraib:

 

[Vic]

What's happening to detained Palestinians is just going to be another Abu Ghraib:

But it is the most moral army in the world.

 

[Damocles]

Not sure what the point of this obvious attempt at provocation is Damo?

I understand you disagree with those criticising the far right Israeli regime’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank, based on some of your previous posts in this and other related threads (though, I am still fuzzy as to your political allegiances, as I can’t imagine you are an adherent of Kahanism, and therefore wouldn’t consider yourself aligned with the likes of Smotrich, Ben Gvir, Gallant, et al).

But I don’t understand these infrequent, sarcastic guerrilla posts, rather than directly engaging in good faith debate. Seems out of character.

I may have missed previous interactions you have had on the subject, though, and so probably have an incomplete picture of what may be motivating them.

Either way, I am happy to hear your thoughts on this subject, as my understanding is you and I have quite a lot in common as far as direct experience of the current state of affairs and the implications of it.

My thoughts on this and much of the current world events tend to be cynical mockery. I concentrate my energies on community politics and events now almost exclusively.
Heres my views summarised if you want:

Israel has a disproportionate amount of power in the political systems of Western nations due to their lobbying (legal and otherwise), and due to the Judeo-Christian apocalyptic vision. This has given them power in intra-national bodies that doesn't square with the size, economy or importance of their nations. Both of these have been used to make Israel closer to a rogue state than a Liberal democracy when it comes to its defence policy.

The State of Israel is a key ally against terrorism and authoritarianist countries. They are a huge ally in terms of science and technology, the economy, trade, the NHS and various others. The UK would be worse off by almost every metric if we broke an alliance with Israel.

The land of Israel and Palestine belongs to neither group. Land belonging to people morally is a utopian idea and historically inaccurate. Land belongs to the people with the bigger guns. That's how it's always worked.

There's no good guys here. There's twats vs twats. I refuse to entertain people who claim that the terrorism from Hamas is a justified liberation strategy. Nor that attacking crowds at a concert is part of an ongoing war.

Many of the people who claim to be pro-Palestinian are really more anti-Israel and it would be useful for all involved if they admitted it.

Israel isn't going to stop this until there's no Palestinian lands left and even if a Palestinian state were created, it would just become a rogue state within a generation that would attack Israel anyway because like Israel, they'll never stop wanting more. No treaty will ever work.

Palestinian heritage and culture has nothing to do with a Palestinian state or flag and many Palestinians have been whipped into a nationalism by a history that doesn't exist in order to throw themselves at Israel.

Israel is using collective punishment and commiting war crimes against civilians, and I don't accept that "it will make things quicker" or "well we had to bomb that hospital because muh terrorism" as an adequate excuse. Yes, wars are hard. Urban wars especially. Soldiers have to spend months to properly clear a city. That's the cost of it. You can't level entire cities because you fancy early finish Friday. I mean that's just fucking cheating.

This war doesn't matter. If Israel wipe out Palestinian lands then it will be under constant attacks for generations. If they don't, then they will be under constant attacks for generations. If they retreat then then they will be under constant attacks for generations. If they form a two state solution then then they will be under constant attacks for generations. You can substitute Israel and Palestine there whenever you want. They've been educating their children for three generations that this is a blood war. Nothing will change now.

 

[Bigga]

There are so many bad faith statements, strawman arguments, and reflections of ignorance of the actual current state of affairs in this post it is astounding. And, based on your posts, I am guessing you have never actually been to Israel or Palestine, and have very little understanding of the history leading to the current dynamics, nor direct experience with the experience of Palestinians or Israelis.

In light of that, I don’t think there is any reason to continue to engage with you, as many of us have tried to do in the past.

Your entire post can be summarised as “yeah, Israel are committing genocide, but Hamas would do it, as well, if they could, so all is fair in love and war.”

And you seemingly have no issue with that faulty reasoning.

He's Piers Morgan, but I don't actually want the grubby £5...

 

[Bigga]

So @SebastianBlue, I have a question.

I don't really understand the clear and direct support of arming Israel to the extent its doing, plus it denying any war crime/ genocide is happening and trying to gaslight the world into believing what they are seeing is untrue (save for the expected few on here).

So, apart from the clear and obvious desire for extreme right of Israeli gov to extend its land grab, I'm wondering if the actions are reinforced by the 'discovery' of oil off the coast and under Palestine? Especially in light of the US cutting the cord from receiving Russian oil (through official channels) and the US reactivating talks with Venezuela (whose economy it trashed because of its desperation for oil).

There are a reported potential of 3Bn barrels in and around Palestine (since discovery in 2019), so the current actions and risk-taking in front of the world makes sense to me.

Thoughts and anyone else?

 

[SebastianBlue]

My thoughts on this and much of the current world events tend to be cynical mockery. I concentrate my energies on community politics and events now almost exclusively.
Heres my views summarised if you want:

Israel has a disproportionate amount of power in the political systems of Western nations due to their lobbying (legal and otherwise), and due to the Judeo-Christian apocalyptic vision. This has given them power in intra-national bodies that doesn't square with the size, economy or importance of their nations. Both of these have been used to make Israel closer to a rogue state than a Liberal democracy when it comes to its defence policy.

The State of Israel is a key ally against terrorism and authoritarianist countries. They are a huge ally in terms of science and technology, the economy, trade, the NHS and various others. The UK would be worse off by almost every metric if we broke an alliance with Israel.

The land of Israel and Palestine belongs to neither group. Land belonging to people morally is a utopian idea and historically inaccurate. Land belongs to the people with the bigger guns. That's how it's always worked.

There's no good guys here. There's twats vs twats. I refuse to entertain people who claim that the terrorism from Hamas is a justified liberation strategy. Nor that attacking crowds at a concert is part of an ongoing war.

Many of the people who claim to be pro-Palestinian are really more anti-Israel and it would be useful for all involved if they admitted it.

Israel isn't going to stop this until there's no Palestinian lands left and even if a Palestinian state were created, it would just become a rogue state within a generation that would attack Israel anyway because like Israel, they'll never stop wanting more. No treaty will ever work.

Palestinian heritage and culture has nothing to do with a Palestinian state or flag and many Palestinians have been whipped into a nationalism by a history that doesn't exist in order to throw themselves at Israel.

Israel is using collective punishment and commiting war crimes against civilians, and I don't accept that "it will make things quicker" or "well we had to bomb that hospital because muh terrorism" as an adequate excuse. Yes, wars are hard. Urban wars especially. Soldiers have to spend months to properly clear a city. That's the cost of it. You can't level entire cities because you fancy early finish Friday. I mean that's just fucking cheating.

This war doesn't matter. If Israel wipe out Palestinian lands then it will be under constant attacks for generations. If they don't, then they will be under constant attacks for generations. If they retreat then then they will be under constant attacks for generations. If they form a two state solution then then they will be under constant attacks for generations. You can substitute Israel and Palestine there whenever you want. They've been educating their children for three generations that this is a blood war. Nothing will change now.

Thank you for earnestly sharing your thoughts. I had definitely misunderstood your position.

I agree with a lot of this, but disagree with a few bits. I don’t think there is any benefit to debating the elements I disagree with, though, as they are more matters of opinion (and prediction) than anything else.

For the record, I am neither pro-Palestine nor pro-Israel (you and I likely share similar views on nationalism and patriotism). I am anti-genocide, anti-terrorism, anti-far right, and pro-humanism.