General Videogame Thread

Damocles said:
I bought it based on a review by Chris Schilling in EDGE who I can assure you is neither a hipster nor somebody who toes the line to fit in. He's a City fan too, but more importantly I agree with most of his reviews as I did with Zelda.

Can you name any of these games that received little attention despite their innovation?

I'm not suggesting that people's opinions are wrong, but there IS an objective quality to games as an art form whether you like it or not. Ocarina is better than Superman 64 objectively just as the Mona Lisa is better than my lad's drawings objectively. Technical quality exists.

Playing OOT now and not rating it is beyond pointless. It's like watching Citizen Kane and complaining about the lack of visual effects. All art is released as a commentary or response to its timeframe and it is judged by that. Experiencing 5 new generations of development then going back and saying "well I don't see what the fuss is about" is patently absurd.

Luckily, we do have a place which collates reviews from the time they were written which looks at many different outlets across the world. Here's some comments:



That's from GameShark



That's from the newspaper the Cincinatti Enquirer



That's from IGN.



And we could go on - all of these reviews were written on release in 1998 by respected journalists or game reviewers. These people weren't Japanophiles nor were they looking through nostalgia tinted glasses. They were just able to recognise a masterpiece when they saw one.

There';s this ridiculous sort of cross between cynicism and arrogance that people have now that tries to denigrate anything that's a popular opinion. "Oh well it couldn't really be that great if it didn't blow me away so there must be some other reason like all journalists are bent or something". There's nothing wrong with the journalists or their opinions. Ocarina was a genre defining masterpiece that is considered the highest rated game of all time. The new Zelda is challenging it for its title. This is happening regardless of what you personally think about it.
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All you've done is quote reviews I've pretty much already read I know Edge very well, they are the worst for it, they act like they are above everybody, the daily mail of the videogame world(I do get what you're saying though you will stick to certain reviewers because they share similar tastes, we could be talking about films or books there though, it's normal). The post was self explanatory nobody needs you to validate their opinion(or some gaming publication) it's as I said if someone really did play it for a good few hours and found themself bored not wanting to continue and thus concluded they didn't find it the best game ever made... to turn around and assume it's because they are new to gaming("you're not worthy") or demanding they take it back throwing review scores at them banging on about metacentric just proves my point about Nintendo fans being just like Apple fans(pretentious). Best game ever is pretty stupid to argue over to begin with there shouldn't be a definitive answer to that question it should be subjective.

Can you name any of these games that received little attention despite their innovation?
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Mate we are discussing on the internet I could google that right now and come up with a bucketfull and you know it. So I wont I'll just give you one of my own examples that I thought was criminal that I missed through lack of anyone giving a shit(I was as much annoyed at myself for missing it when it was new, it would have blown me away in 1999) in System Shock2... "oh it's just a shooty first person shooter... big wow... no thanks back to Mario cos I wanna be different"*smug face* sure people may give it some credit now but at the time it certainly didn't get much attention there's countless other games that if they had a big Japanese name slapped across it would have received so much more love I'm sure of it(this is just the way things are/were). You can act like it's blasphemy all you like and it's not at all "just because it's a popular opinion and people just want to go against it to be different"(that's hipster domain), you're overreacting to an opinion and you will get yourself nowhere with the line of reasoning you've chosen, all you've said regarding games journalism(which you are using as some pillar of truth) is "it's not that it's this" with nothing to "validate" your assertions either... I lost faith in them yonks ago because I started to see right through them. The amount of times they'll give their favourites a pass and bash another for the same thing is laughable(as well as the times they inexplicably convince you to buy a complete dud), double standards are rife and it's rooted in fanboyism.

Again it wasn't that I said it wasn't a good game nor that it had no innovation(that part is as far as the objectivity goes in all of it... no further than that the rest really is subjective "whether you like it or not" ;) ), if what you are hearing is "OOT was shit and not innovative" over anything I've said then you really need to stop being so precious and read it(we've had drama already, it's unnecessary we're just discussing here, nothing personal about it). Just out of curiosity though what was OOT's biggest innovation for you? And no googling just your own experience, what you genuinely thought when you played it I'd rather hear that than read something that's clearly taken out of a magazine, you don't need Edge for this. Most of the innovations I hear mentioned were to do with the transition to 3D which is a little unfair to games that came later as it was no longer new ground, not that they don't deserve credit but it's an important point to think about. Even the much lauded Z targeting wasn't actually the first implementation of a lock-on system in 3-D, Megaman Legends for one had one (there's probably more) and a camera system isn't that innovative either both of those are mainly taking existing ideas and improving on/perfecting them(still innovative but how much so?).

Also I've not played the new Zelda, it looks good but I have no opinion on it, the whole dictatorship of the games industry I do have an opinion on. Final thoughts... no game holds this "title" you speak of though it's completely subjective, if it takes the title of your personal favourite game ever then great I wont argue with that.
 
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Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot said:
Exactly!

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a large percentage of people who played OOT and enjoyed it but preferred other games around that era like Final Fantasy or even Metal Gear Solid....

Final Fantasy great example of how I don't buy into hype... as a huge fan of Final Fantasy I can unbiasedly say that FFVII is massively overrated, a good game with some features that helped FF evolve over the following 5 years, but it's nowhere near the best of the lot. However the remake will come out, a large majority of FF fans will cream over it and critics will most likely give it 9s/10, because nostalgia.
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Nice to see someone else is brave enough to "blaspheme" on here, it's worth enduring their wrath just see someone else say it. :) They are just games.
 
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Tricky Dickys Right Foot Shot said:
Majority of games today are rated by standards 20 years ago, the difference being 20 years ago they were original, so games released this year may be lower rated than they would have been 20 years ago (if that makes sense)... BOTW has been given outstanding scores, but I imagine when given these scores they've been compared to previous Zelda titles, so essentially it's rated the best Zelda game ever, yet however it's easy to misinterpret this as the best game ever.

Judging something as the best anything ever is all about personal preference:

best footballer genuinely comes down to Messi or Ronaldo...
Best film genuinely could be any of the top 5 most popular films you can think of...
The same goes for games, which are now becoming some of an art, I actually think it was Kojima who said that eventually books, films/tv shows and video games will merge into one source of entertainment.
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Billy-D_Approves.gif

The fact that anyone believes there should be a definitive best game ever that we all have to agree on should say it all to anyone who is truly thinking for themselves instead of engaging in this constant kudos point scoring system that exists in the gaming geek world or the hipster world. I've pretty much said I rarely play games anymore it just annoys me thinking back to the forcing of opinions down each other necks that went on when I did haha.
 
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BimboBob said:
If someone says they don't think it's the best game of all time then that's their opinion. Why is this wrong? That's your trouble Damo, you wade in, stating that your opinion is fact, riding rough shod over other people.

OoT was and is still a very good game. Best ever? Not for me. But that's my choice. I think Goldeneye was a better game on the N64.
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Nooo, now read this one properly this time in an even more condensed format so you can't miss it:

You can have an opinion that your kid's drawing is a better picture than the Mona Lisa but you're wrong. Whether you like it or not, technical quality DOES exist in art, it is not an entirely subjective space.

This is the problem with you Bimbo, you dive head first into threads without the slightest clue about the point that's being made and then wrongly argue against a point that nobody else has made, then have to have the original thing explained to you like you're some sort of child.
 
Metalartin said:
Billy-D_Approves.gif

The fact that anyone believes there should be a definitive best game ever that we all have to agree on should say it all to anyone who is truly thinking for themselves instead of engaging in this constant kudos point scoring system that exists in the gaming geek world or the hipster world. I've pretty much said I rarely play games anymore it just annoys me thinking back to the forcing of opinions down each other necks that went on when I did haha.
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Jamie Pollock is better than Messi or Ronaldo and is the best player who ever lived. I'm absolutely sick of so called "journalists" and hipsters arguing in some point scoring system and forcing their pro-Messi/pro-Ronaldo opinions down people's throats. Pollock is the best ever and anybody who says I'm wrong is just some fanboy or something.

This. This is how stupid your point is.
 
Damocles said:
Nooo, now read this one properly this time in an even more condensed format so you can't miss it:

You can have an opinion that your kid's drawing is a better picture than the Mona Lisa but you're wrong. Whether you like it or not, technical quality DOES exist in art, it is not an entirely subjective space.

This is the problem with you Bimbo, you dive head first into threads without the slightest clue about the point that's being made and then wrongly argue against a point that nobody else has made, then have to have the original thing explained to you like you're some sort of child.
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No he's bang on it isn't objective you really are getting precious and aggressive over this... certain aspects are objective is it a good game yes, were there innovations for it's time yes and so on but that's as far as it extends the rest really is subjective and games are not art.
 
Damocles said:
Jamie Pollock is better than Messi or Ronaldo and is the best player who ever lived. I'm absolutely sick of so called "journalists" and hipsters arguing in some point scoring system and forcing their pro-Messi/pro-Ronaldo opinions down people's throats. Pollock is the best ever and anybody who says I'm wrong is just some fanboy or something.

This. This is how stupid your point is.
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No this is bollocks pal not my point at all... infact that's a complete strawman and you're having a hissy fit over a videogame... grow up and get over yourself you pretentious fool.
 
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Metalartin said:
No he's bang on it isn't objective you really are getting precious and aggressive over this... certain aspects are objective is it a good game yes, was there innovations for it's time yes and so on but that's as far as it extends the rest really is subjective and games are not art.
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You've just lost the right to an opinion with this level of stupidity.
 
Metalartin said:
No this is bollocks pal not my point at all... infact that complete strawman and you're having a hissy fit over a videogame... grow up and get over yourself you pretentious fool.
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Stop with your anti-Pollock agenda you pretentious hipster
 
Metalartin said:
Haha my god...
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The irony that you started off insulting people who somehow lionise Japanese games and their designers, then finished by lionising a Japanese game director as an appeal to authority is just fucking magnificent to me.

God I've missed it here.
 
Damocles said:
The irony that you started off insulting people who somehow lionise Japanese games and their designers, then finished by lionising a Japanese game director as an appeal to authority is just fucking magnificent to me.

God I've missed it here.
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I've done nothing of the sort(the mention of that was clearly for your benefit) I like Japanese videos games, I like Sega and Nintendo in fact but I'm not a fan of anyone believing they are an authority where they aren't(I've actually said nobody is the authority, that's the point... not EDGE, not Nintendo, not anyone, certainly not you)... the irony in your posts is quite rich... why does it have to be so personal? It's like I've insulted someone's religion for pointing a few things out that annoy me in the industry in general. I did kind of take a swipe at Nintendo fans I guess but it was only in how it's annoying how they react(shoot people down and get aggressive about it) if you dare to simply have a different opinion and try and pass theirs off as fact etc... probably should have left it but wanted to say you're allowed to say if you don't love Zelda as much as some if that's how you feel, lets just end it there anyway what do we really gain from going round in circles over it?

The new Zelda is clearly a good game lets just be happy with that.
 
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Damocles said:
Jamie Pollock is better than Messi or Ronaldo and is the best player who ever lived. I'm absolutely sick of so called "journalists" and hipsters arguing in some point scoring system and forcing their pro-Messi/pro-Ronaldo opinions down people's throats. Pollock is the best ever and anybody who says I'm wrong is just some fanboy or something.

This. This is how stupid your point is.
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Depends which game Jamie Pollock is representing, in my opinion he would represent a game I played called Rake, which lacked any sort of game play (talent), controls were useless (skill) and it looked mediocre (boring).... the only difference is I can't see Rake getting type 2 diabetes in the next 20 years!
 
Damocles said:
Nooo, now read this one properly this time in an even more condensed format so you can't miss it:

You can have an opinion that your kid's drawing is a better picture than the Mona Lisa but you're wrong. Whether you like it or not, technical quality DOES exist in art, it is not an entirely subjective space.

This is the problem with you Bimbo, you dive head first into threads without the slightest clue about the point that's being made and then wrongly argue against a point that nobody else has made, then have to have the original thing explained to you like you're some sort of child.
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For once I didn't dive straight in but read, and re-read your long post on the subject and subsequent follow ups. You argue, as ever, coherently and with passion but fail to see both sides of the argument.

Art, and yes video games can be art, is entirely subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz. My point about the game not being the best game ever is valid because that is my opinion. An opinion. Much like the games magazines opinions. Sure, they all give it the thumbs up, and I respect them for that, but to me, in my world, I think Goldeneye is a much better game, especially in my preferred medium, online.

Everyone, including you, is entitled to an opinion. It doesn't mean you are always right. As your Mona Lisa comparison alludes to. It definitely is a subjective space. Tracey Emin and her tent? Formaldehyde cows? All works of art and either genius or a waste of space.
 
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