Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Xiphos]

They're finished. Corbyn and his persuasion have driven them into the ground.

England will be Tory and Scotland SNP for the next 15 years.

Unless Kim fires a thermo nuclear at us;)

 

[Ban-jani]

Unless Kim fires a thermo nuclear at us;)

He won't waste it on us, it will be aimed at the Yanks and will land in the Pacific.

 

[Xiphos]

They're finished. Corbyn and his persuasion have driven them into the ground.

England will be Tory and Scotland SNP for the next 15 years.

Predicted to lose 150 council seats in May elections, won't make any difference the Corbynistas have a grip on the party that they will not give up easily

 

[Helmet Cole]

Interesting article....

Road to Brexit: The real players that will keep EU talks going

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-european-commission-alex-ellis-a7677826.html

In Brussels there is confidence that the EU can dictate terms now that Article 50 has been invoked. “Our biggest asset is the clock,” said one insider, referring to the March 2019 deadline when UK would depart with no deal if none has been reached.

The hope is that time pressure forces Britain into last-minute concessions; the EU will insist that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.” One EU diplomat said: “It is difficult to see what cards the UK has got. Theresa May tried security but no one believes the UK is going to stop co-operating on terrorism or leave NATO. Britain needs our co-operation."

While a trade deal would be in the EU’s interests, the view in Brussels is that the UK overestimates the importance of one to the bloc. The bottom line that unites all EU institutions is that the UK cannot enjoy the same or better terms than it does as an EU member.

They are prepared to take an economic hit to preserve the EU project and deter other states from leaving. An economic downside has already been factored in by the EU. As Mark Rutte, the Dutch Prime Minister, puts it privately: “This is going to be bad for both sides.”

Even more reason to stick to our guns about walking away with no deal if necessary. The EU is not trying to negotiate, they are trying to coerce and bully. Its like being trapped in an abusive relationship, and stuff like this makes it clear they are sinister and we need out.

 

[smudgedj]

Even more reason to stick to our guns about walking away with no deal if necessary.

Stop it. You're scaring people.

 

[Len Rum]

Even more reason to stick to our guns about walking away with no deal if necessary. The EU is not trying to negotiate, they are trying to coerce and bully. Its like being trapped in an abusive relationship, and stuff like this makes it clear they are sinister and we need out.

"Stick to our guns about walking away with no deal if necessary".
Please please take yourself away mate.
We're not talking about the school tuck shop here.
We're a country with an advanced economy with 65 million people who have traded with the EU for the last 40+ years and are dependent on that trade and economic model for our well being.
You can't just change that at the flick of a wrist , move seamlessly to a different trading arrangement with the rest of the world overnight without a lot of pain and hardship, the EU and anyone else with half a brain knows this.
Give your head a wobble , even the Appeaser and her three stooges are softening their tone for a soft Brexit ( in five years time).

 

[Ban-jani]

Predicted to lose 150 council seats in May elections, won't make any difference the Corbynistas have a grip on the party that they will not give up easily

It's glorious

 

[Xiphos]

It's glorious

I know what you mean but do we want a one party state like what Erdogan will turn Turkey into after tomorrows vote ?

 

[Ban-jani]

I know what you mean but do we want a one party state like what Erdogan will turn Turkey into after tomorrows vote ?

No we don't but it's cemented the end of the left. It will take a while but Labour won't always be useless.

 

[Len Rum]

It's glorious

You're easily overwhelmed.
Get yourself a life mate.

 

[Ban-jani]

You're easily overwhelmed.
Get yourself a life mate.

Hahaha

Look at how upset they get when they're not getting their own way.

 

[mcfc1632]

There is an interesting logic to pursue though - if, how Fumble sets it out, is correct from the left perspective then they should be supporting Brexit surely?

It would be the best way of realising that future. It will never happen whilst in the EU and if the Tories fail post Brexit then the left can step in with a freedom to pursue this path.

I am surprised that neither Fumble or Len and perhaps some others have not felt any need to explain their opposition to Brexit, given recognition that the political model that they are so keen to achieve can never materialise with the UK within the EU. Indeed, if the UK is to develop towards the model they crave, leaving the EU, from the hard left point of view, would appear to be essential.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I am surprised that neither Fumble or Len and perhaps some others have not felt any need to explain their opposition to Brexit, given recognition that the political model that they are so keen to achieve can never materialise with the UK within the EU. Indeed, if the UK is to develop towards the model they crave, leaving the EU, from the hard left point of view, would appear to be essential.

It is telling that some of the more strident remainers are also cheerleaders for Corbyn.
Prior to that, Red Ed was the object of their affections.
Then, a display of all things about the brilliant EU.
So, in effect we're debating with serial losers, who have now convinced themselves that they've been right all along.
When someone is demonstrably wrong, and is consistently wrong, it becomes very difficult, if not impossible,
to convince others you're right this time.

 

[The perfect fumble]

“This year, after a period of intense debate over the right future for our country, there is a sense that people are coming together and uniting behind the opportunities that lie ahead. For at heart, this country is one great union of people and nations with a proud history and a bright future. And as we face the opportunities ahead – the opportunities that stem from our decision to leave the EU, and embrace the world – our shared interests, our shared ambitions and, above all, our shared values can and must bring us together.”

Theresa May

 

[stonerblue]

“This year, after a period of intense debate over the right future for our country, there is a sense that people are coming together and uniting behind the opportunities that lie ahead. For at heart, this country is one great union of people and nations with a proud history and a bright future. And as we face the opportunities ahead – the opportunities that stem from our decision to leave the EU, and embrace the world – our shared interests, our shared ambitions and, above all, our shared values can and must bring us together.”

Theresa May

What a big steaming pile of lies. 'Coming together' my arse.

 

[mcfc1632]

This whole Brexit scam was built on a pack of lies, a successful con trick, problem is conmen don't usually have to hang around to deal with the consequences of their scam, these fuckers do. There's not a day goes by that they don't back peddle and dissemble, break Brexit promises while quietly going on their hands and knees begging for more time.

There has been a lot said about the 'lies' that the Leave campaign told ahead of the Referendum. I personally found the absolute intentional deceit of the government to be far more reprehensible. There has also been a lot posted by Remainers that the EU has no impact on 'Sovereignty'.

It got me thinking about a past issue which I had heard about a while ago (turned out it was 2012) - which is the FACT that the government ahead of taking us into the EEC/EU - received direct and formal advice from the FCO that membership would lead to all the main outcomes that have been described by the Leave campaign and for a number of years UKIP with regard to ever closer union/integration, loss of sovereignty and supremacy of EU law etc..

The advice, issued in 1971 and buried until its forced release under the 30 year rule, went into a lot of depth and also commented on how 'difficult messages' should be dropped as they cannot be simply disguised. It also predicted that to join the EEC/EU would lead to a path of monetary and military union - it was really quite perceptive.

The bottom line, which cannot be denied, is that the government of the day was formally advised by the its own authority on the likely long-term outcomes of joining the EEC/EU and it deliberately mislead the populace in it's own statements and acted to deny the populace access to counter views - a bit like a 'Project Positive' version of what the government did in 2016. Don't forget we did not have the internet in those days.

As I say it is a very wordy document, but for those interested just google FCO 30-1048 - you can find the full document and some useful summaries. You will also find a lot of accusations against Heath and the other sycophants of acts of treason.

A few extracts:

"The loss of external sovereignty will however increase as the Community develops, according to the intention of the preamble to the Treaty of Rome "to establish the foundations of an even closer union among the European peoples "."

"The impact of entry upon sovereignty is closely related to the blurring of distinctions between domestic political and foreign affairs, to the greater political responsibility of the bureaucracy of the Community and the lack of effective democratic control."

"The power of the European Court to consider the extent to which a UK statute is compatible with Community Law will indirectly involve an innovation for us, as the European Court's decisions will be binding on our courts which might then have to rule on the validity or applicability of the United Kingdom statute. "

Don't forget - these were the views of the government's key advisors and planners at the time.

Interestingly, when I explained some posts ago about how 'Communications strategies' are put together and implemented I received some strange levels of abuse - rather than recognition that this is 'real world' stuff. In the articles/comments you can find online about this subject is evidence that Heath's government went on a major communications campaign, part of which was ensuring that copies of speeches from detractors, such as Enoch, were received in advance and rebuttals pre-prepared.

The advice document itself mentions:

"After entry (to EEC, 1972) there would be a major responsibility on HMG and on all political parties not to exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures or unfavourable economic developments to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community."

For those motivated to look deeper you start to see the extent to which the EU architects were working with Heath and his main EEC sycophants, especially Whitelaw, Home and Howe. These included Jean Monet - who's ambition for a federal state of Europe I have posted about previously.

Now, set aside interpretations of a slogan on a bus, - this was lying - at the grandest possible level.

 

[mcfc1632]

So I see that there has not been a flood of posts from Remainers to try and refute the facts of what happened in 1971.

I am not surprised because it is simple and undeniable fact.

But if we that are opposed to the EU's federalist dream need to get over the enormous deceit of 1971 and that attempted in 2016, perhaps it is fair for us to expect that the Remainers get over themselves and start living in the here and now?

 

[The perfect fumble]

So I see that there has not been a flood of posts from Remainers to try and refute the facts of what happened in 1971.

I am not surprised because it is simple and undeniable fact.

But if we that are opposed to the EU's federalist dream need to get over the enormous deceit of 1971 and that attempted in 2016, perhaps it is fair for us to expect that the Remainers get over themselves and start living in the here and now?

You didn't have to wait thirty years to find out what went on in 1971. The referendum in 1975 was keenly fought, this speech by Peter Shore in a debate with Edward Heath pulled no punches, he openly accused Heath of bypassing Parliament and the people in 1971, cheered on by Barbara Castle....



And in the days when people watched TV not only for entertainment but enlightenment there were hour long programmes like this...



I was eighteen at the time, I remember much of the debate centred around Heath's duplicity, how he tricked us in to the Common Market, he was out of power in 1975 having gambled everything over the first miners strike, even by the gentler standards of 1975 Heath had no hiding place.

But the debate didn't end even after the referendum, Powell and other wouldn't let it go....



The only parallels between 1975 and now is that Shore, Benn, Barbara Castle, Powell et al lost the argument and the referendum. Forty years later the Brexiters lost the argument as well, but unlike 1975 they went on to win the referendum (much to their surprise).

Yeah, yeah, yeah....Same old didn't win the argument bollocks! remainers lost, leavers won, get with the programme! Question is, what programme is that?

Page after page we get the usual from you and other leavers about remoaners and their dystopian predictions, how we should get on board blah, blah, blah! But get on board what? No leaver in here or anywhere else for that matter has the faintest idea where we're going with this, you are united only in what you don't want. But a plan? A vision of where we'll be in ten, twenty years? There's nothing but empty words and slogans. You don't even know what would constitute a good Brexit deal, that's why despite saying you'd respond to Len Rum's predictions you never do.

In 1975 Shore and the other leavers were in a similar predicament to Brexiters, they knew what they didn't want but they were unable to paint a compelling picture of what they wanted, except a return to the status quo, which wasn't a particularly exciting prospect, they lost so never ended up where you are now. You won so now we are in the worst place imaginable, leaving the EU somehow, sometime, on terms unknown, to a destination that's anyone's guess.

Maybe for you leaving is simply enough, but even you must be aware that's not a compelling narrative to convince those that wanted to stay, yet still you demand their unquestioning allegiance! Do you still not understand why remainers have difficulty rallying round that?

 

[Ban-jani]

What a big steaming pile of lies. 'Coming together' my arse.

They are indeed. Many people who were stern remainers are now embracing Brexit and are wanting to make the best out of it. I know several people I completely disagreed with who are now trying to be positive and believe we should look to make a good go of it.

But continue to wallow in negativity, that will surely help.

 

[mcfc1632]

Fumble

That is a really long-winded way of saying.............

Yeah you are right - the populace - in general - were lied to at the time we were taken into the EEC/EU.

The main thrust of my post was exposing the FACT that in 1971 the government's own authoritative body was clear in their advice that joining the EEC/EU would lead to the outcomes that the Leave campaign and UKIP were stating - and they deliberately buried the information and outright lied.

There was a deceit which was off the scale in its level of planning and coordination

Will we ever see a post from you that states or recognises simple facts or is it all obfuscation with you?

Edit - to say re - your comment on me replying to Len's post. I am on a family holiday and unlike you, I tend to prefer to think about content - and frankly doing something in response to your requests is somehow nowhere near the top of my priority list.

When I am off hols I will reply.

But there again you have not replied - when I placed the same challenge on you - why not?? are you on hols?