General Election June 8th

[Xiphos]

If the Tories remain in power, I'm off.....

You'v already gone you Morrisey loving t*** lol, you can have this bunch of snowflakes over there
Lilly Allen
Geldorf
Lineker
Gina Miller
Corbyn
Abbott
That very punchable twat Farron
Clegg
The house of lords
Dennis fucking Skinner

 

[SWP's back]

Dennis fucking Skinner

The wank stain.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

If the Tories remain in power, I'm off.....

This is how it feels to be British,
This is how it feels to be small.
We've got Theresa
You've got Donald J Trump, Donald J Trump

 

[bluethrunthru]

Glad someone else understands the simple logic of why May will be strongly advised - for very good reasons - that she would be doing the UK a major disservice if she was to put herself in a position of having to disclose sensitive information about the forthcoming negotiations just as they are about to start.

Just what level of obsession or lack of ability to think things through is it that makes people capable of not understanding this very simple fact

except she called the snap GE herself and made it quite clear its about Brexit in her view - ergo she opens herself up to questions on Brexit she'd rather not answer. A fucking masterstroke. The last Tory PM to call an unnecessary national vote that he assumed he would win and May could have made the same arrogant mistake

 

[bluethrunthru]

But she doesn't have to give anything away in a TV debate. I think most people would be quite interested in hearing where she stands on the NHS, social care, the plan to reduce the deficit, affordable housing, etc. None of those involve giving away any Brexit negotiation secrets.

Because her policies are more of the same failures that we are currently experiencing - why would she want to be questioned on that. Add into the mix its about Brexit but she doesn't want to answer questions on that either and prepare for lots of "strong stable leadership" ( said 13 times in a 5 minute speech yesterday ) and "the coalition of chaos" ( the one Sir Linton thought up overnight ) but very little substance - thats what she has gone to the country on !! Trust a PM who has had two major issues in her short time in charge - repeatedly she denied she would call a snap GE - and the assurance that the self employed NI budget move was fair and needed - both rolled back. And we should trust her?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Anyone else seen this tweet from the supposedly impartial BBC's Nick Robinson;

No-one should be surprised that @jeremycorbyn is running v the "Establishment" & is long on passion & short on details. Story of his life

 

[mcfc1632]

Oh come off it. Her avoiding the debates has nothing to do with Brexit. The reason she's avoiding it is cos she has nothing to gain and everything to lose. If she agrees to do it and makes a tit of herself then the poll numbers could start heading in the wrong direction. Don't try and pass this off as some masterplan to keep our Brexit cards close to our chest.

You are not absolutely wrong - just, IMO, mostly.

I agree with you that there is another factor '............she has nothing to gain and everything to lose....' as you say. So it may well be true that if this was 'just another election' and did not have the Brexit factor at it's heart, May, or any other sitting PM might wish to avoid debates.

But this is a side issue and the point I make about the negotiations is absolute fact - and should easily be understood if people just take time to think.

E.g.

"Mrs May - can you absolutely confirm that once the deal is concluded the UK will not be making significant contributions to the EU?" or

"Mrs May - following conclusion of the deal can you confirm that there will be no areas of UK life that will be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ?"

"Mrs May - can you confirm that you would be willing to pay money into the EU if it was to secure access to the single market whilst not being forced to accept FOM?"

and many many more such questions.

There are 3 stakeholder groups that would wish to hear the head of the UK Negotiating team expose key aspects of the negotiating strategy, her Red Lines and leave herself tied to 'hostages to fortune'.

1. the EU Negotiating Team - very useful information which will give them the ability to play games with the UK to back us into corners where public commitments have been made.

2. The Remainers - largely for the same reason, but for a different target - they want to undermine and hopefully reverse Brexit. They would wish to keep in the public mind a mood of doom and gloom and if told a number of the key deliverables from Brexit they will be all over the media explaining how they cannot be achieved - how they evidence some back-sliding etc. They will essentially be agents of the EU causing major distraction. May will want all this to go quiet and following A50 issue it is starting to transfer to smouldering rather than an inferno - why would she pour petrol on it?

3. The Hard Brexit cadre - that will equally want to jump on anything they perceive to be a reduction from the 'fullest Brexit'. May might well have to make compromises as the negotiations unfold - that is how negotiations work.

May needs to be unfettered by all 3 of these groups as she goes into the negotiations - that is why the election is an excellent move. With a large majority she will certainly be free of the Hard Brexiteers threat, she will also be able to face down a lot of the Remainer noise as it reduces. Most importantly it will remove from the EU the hope that they have hitherto had good reason to hold, that machinations in the UK can lead to Brexit being undermined from within or even reversed. That means that they will have to face up to the fact that we are leaving and get down to negotiating rather than stalling and dragging things out.

 

[domalino]

Anyone else seen this tweet from the supposedly impartial BBC's Nick Robinson;

He's got to be impartial whilst performing his job on the BBC, his personal twitter account is where he can voice his own views, which can be whatever.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Anyone else seen this tweet from the supposedly impartial BBC's Nick Robinson;

Hmm Nick 'Bertie' Robinson.

 

[mcfc1632]

But she doesn't have to give anything away in a TV debate. I think most people would be quite interested in hearing where she stands on the NHS, social care, the plan to reduce the deficit, affordable housing, etc. None of those involve giving away any Brexit negotiation secrets.

Ok - I will immediately switch to being a supporter that these debates should take place - as many as people like.

On the condition that there will not be any amount of the scope of questions put being about Brexit and the negotiations. Also, that the others in the debates will absolutely commit to ensuring their comments will under no circumstance be related to Brexit and the negotiations.

Tell me your confidence that would happen?

Would Farron, Sturgeon etc. do that?

 

[blueparrot]

You are not absolutely wrong - just mostly.

I agree with you that there is another factor '............she has nothing to gain and everything to lose....' as you say. So it may well be true that if this was 'just another election' and did not have the Brexit factor at it's heart, May, or any other sitting PM might wish to avoid debates.

But this is a side issue and the point I make about the negotiations is absolute fact - and should easily be understood if people just take time to think.

E.g.

"Mrs May - can you absolutely confirm that once the deal is concluded the UK will not be making significant contributions to the EU?" or

"Mrs May - following conclusion of the deal can you confirm that there will be no areas of UK life that will be subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ?"

"Mrs May - can you confirm that you would be willing to pay money into the EU if it was to secure access to the single market whilst not being forced to accept FOM?"

and many many more such questions.

There are 3 stakeholder groups that would wish to hear the head of the UK Negotiating team expose key aspects of the negotiating strategy, her Red Lines and leave herself tied to 'hostages to fortune'.

1. the EU Negotiating Team - very useful information which will give them the ability to play games with the UK to back us into corners where public commitments have been made.

2. The Remainers - largely for the same reason, but for a different target - they want to undermine and hopefully reverse Brexit. They would wish to keep in the public mind a bunch of doom and gloom and if told a number of the key deliverables from Brexit they will be all over the media explaining how they cannot be achieved - how they evidence some back-sliding etc. They will essentially be agents of the EU causing major distraction. May will want all this to go quiet and following A50 issue it is starting to transfer to smouldering rather than an inferno - why would she pour petrol on it?

3. The Hard Brexit cadre - that will equally want to jump on anything they perceive to be a reduction from the 'fullest Brexit'. May might well have to make compromises as the negotiations unfold - that is how negotiations work.

May needs to be unfettered by all 3 of these groups as she goes into the negotiations - that is why the election is an excellent move. With a large majority she will certainly be free of the Hard Brexiteers threat, she will also be able to face down a lot of the Remainer noise as it reduces. Most importantly it will remove from the EU the hope that they have hitherto had good reason to hold that machinations in the UK can lead to Brexit being undermined from within. That means that they will have to face up to the fact that we are leaving and get down to negotiating rather than stalling and dragging things out.

So why call an election she knows will subject her to brexit questioning, especially when she says she called it to seek a brexit mandate, if she doesn't want to talk about brexit. Makes no sense.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

He's got to be impartial whilst performing his job on the BBC, his personal twitter account is where he can voice his own views, which can be whatever.

Would that be his personal Twitter account @bbcnickrobinson?

 

[domalino]

Would that be his personal Twitter account @bbcnickrobinson?

Yes. It's probably also the one which also says either "these are my own views and not the views of my employer" or has a link to a similar disclaimer.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

She has made herself clear about what type of Brexit she wants and she can't unilaterally promise anything because the ball is very much in the EU's court. Any question about Brexit negotiations would just be cheap point scoring. Questions on the economy and such would be relevant though.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Ok - I will immediately switch to being a supporter that these debates should take place - as many as people like.

On the condition that there will not be any amount of the scope of questions put being about Brexit and the negotiations. Also, that the others in the debates will absolutely commit to ensuring their comments will under no circumstance be related to Brexit and the negotiations.

Tell me your confidence that would happen?

Would Farron, Sturgeon etc. do that?

Brexit is, according to her, the main reason for calling this election so why should they? Personally I'm happy to let her and the Three Stooges Johnson, Fox & Davies get on with it but all she has to say, as she's already been saying, is that she has no intention of giving away our potential negotiating position.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Yes. It's probably also the one which also says either "these are my own views and not the views of my employer" or has a link to a similar disclaimer.

Actually it says "Presenter, Today, BBC Radio 4 & Talking Politics podcast. Former BBC/ITV Political Editor. Author, Election Notebook & Live from Downing Street".

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Actually it says "Presenter, Today, BBC Radio 4 & Talking Politics podcast. Former BBC/ITV Political Editor. Author, Election Notebook & Live from Downing Street".

The BBC are a law to themselves as are their employees apparently.

 

[mcfc1632]

except she called the snap GE herself and made it quite clear its about Brexit in her view - ergo she opens herself up to questions on Brexit she'd rather not answer. A fucking masterstroke. The last Tory PM to call an unnecessary national vote that he assumed he would win and May could have made the same arrogant mistake

I can understand you thinking that.

I can understand you wanting the opportunity to hear all about the intended outcomes.

It absolutely will and should not happen.

It would be upmost folly from a negotiating POV and extremely damaging to the UK's positions.

I suggest that you will start to hear less and less in the coming months - there will be no running commentary. Do you think that slogan was hers? - no it will be from the advice of the professionals that will be the core of her negotiating team. As will be the clear advice to avoid taking any risks of being drawn into exposing any details of the approach being taking to the negotiations.

Certainly May's team will wish to keep all the key aspects of the negotiations and any emerging big issues or settlements totally away from the public eye until a framework for the final deal is agreed. I say framework because that is what it will be.

This will be a challenge - but it absolutely necessary for us to get the best deal.

Re your part: "The last Tory PM to call an unnecessary national vote that he assumed he would win and May could have made the same arrogant mistake"

I agree - there are risks to May's image in taking this course - that is likely why she did not go to the nation in the summer. But all the machinations going on at Westminster and by other vested interest groups now makes this decision on an election the right one. She will win - she will be able to go forward with a free-hand and she will have 5 years to bed things in before being challenged.

Just makes sense from her point of view.

As someone that understands negotiations and also as someone that has voted Labour more times than any other party in my life, it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The BBC are a law to themselves as are their employees apparently.

He's now admitted that his wording was probably wrong. I've just had two responses to complaints where their own investigation has exonerated them.

 

[City Raider]

Why don't we just call this thread the Tory appreciation thread and be done with it?

Seems any views that don't involve hanging out of May's arse are not welcome.

It's a fair point I make. She needs to debate. If she doesn't she will be seen as scared.

She'll debate if Sacre and Murdoch tell her to.

No-one's really interested anyway. No-one is going to change their mind based on policy and the press won't let this be a policy driven debate. It's about personality and she will continue to be projected as strong (despite her obvious cowardice on this) and Corbyn weak because he is a bigger threat to the aforementioned.