Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[mcfc1632]

Dictatorship of the executive over the legislature is what you mean. A blank cheque for May to do as she pleases in our name, to take us to a destination god knows where, in secret, with no scrutiny by Parliament and no effective sanction.

But Fumble - I have read posts from you and others who are strong advocates of Remain speak out loudly about how we are in a representative democracy and how Parliament must have final word etc.

If, following the GE, the UK population has returned a larger majority for the PM - in the full knowledge that she is entering into the negotiations and seeking a stronger mandate to act robustly - is that not exactly representative democracy in action.

Or are you just selective and that is only what you want when the loading in the commons is in favour of Remain?

 

[Damocles]

But Fumble - I have read posts from you and others who are strong advocates of Remain speak out loudly about how we are in a representative democracy and how Parliament must have final word etc.

If, following the GE, the UK population has returned a larger majority for the PM - in the full knowledge that she is entering into the negotiations and seeking a stronger mandate to act robustly - is that not exactly representative democracy in action.

Or are you just selective and that is only what you want when the loading in the commons is in favour of Remain?

Excellent post.

You either believe in democracy or you don't, in my opinion. You can't just champion it when it suits you.

If the Tories are returned with a 100 seat majority then the will of the British people have spoken and they have their mandate.

 

[stonerblue]

Excellent post.

You either believe in democracy or you don't, in my opinion. You can't just champion it when it suits you.

If the Tories are returned with a 100 seat majority then the will of the British people have spoken and they have their mandate.

Sent from my VF695 using Tapatalk

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

 

[Damocles]

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

 

[urban genie]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

Which is what I keep saying when people are saying the won't vote corbyn, as unless they are his constituents they won't be, they will be voting for their own MP.

Unfortunately it has been framed that way for the last year and half, and the last eelction cameron or milliband then and may or corbyn now.

 

[stonerblue]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

OK, 'them' then.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I didn't say give her a mandate, I said give the Tories their mandate.

We don't live in a Presidential system. You're voting for your local MP.

And, in a representative democracy, he or she are supposed to represent the people who've voted for them, NOT the narrow self interest of the PARTY. Their mandate, as you describe it, is to serve the interests of the British people. The real question is, unless the manifesto actually says, "we will leave Europe, whatever the cost", if Parliament is sacrosanct and it gets to a point where the risk/benefit balance has slid inexorably towards risk, will those democratically elected MPs have the balls to pull the plug?

 

[Damocles]

And, in a representative democracy, he or she are supposed to represent the people who've voted for them, NOT the narrow self interest of the PARTY. Their mandate, as you describe it, is to serve the interests of the British people. The real question is, unless the manifesto actually says, "we will leave Europe, whatever the cost", if Parliament is sacrosanct and it gets to a point where the risk/benefit balance has slid inexorably towards risk, will those democratically elected MPs have the balls to pull the plug?

Their mandate is to implement their policies that are in their Manifesto.

And we're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU - a trading union.

 

[mcfc1632]

How can voters give her a mandate re; the Eu when we haven't got a clue what the details are? Are we supposed to just 'trust Theresa'?

The mandate required at the moment is to negotiate the exit from the EU and in so doing to get the best possible deal for the UK. To achieve that it is essential that the EU are facing off against a strong UK team, free to deploy any leverage/strengths that we have. Also that the EU do not have added leverage through seeing the UK continuously discomforted - even hamstrung - by a bunch of distractions at home, largely being undertaken to achieve the EU's preferred outcome of seeing the UK remain within the EU.

There will be no 'good deal' forthcoming if the EU have the luxury of seeing these machinations and can play to them. This especially includes the wrecking amendment that was attempted (dressed up as 'meaningful vote') and Hilary Benn's attempt to bring the same mechanism back through the Brexit Committee. All that would have done is to invite the EU to give us the worst possible deal with them having the sure knowledge that it would be rejected by a pro-EU Parliament and we would never be able (allowed) to leave.

Without this support the EU might just have to 'negotiate' and, instead of continuously laying out their Red Lines etc. have to start considering our positions.

This is little different than the way the EU have ensured that the 27 and all its governance functions are lined up four-square behind their negotiating team. Why is it UK citizens speak admiringly about the robustness of the EU position and lap up all their bold statements about just what we must and must not do, whilst at the same time are happy to rubbish and in some cases actively undermine, the UK's.

With regard your desire to have a look ta the details, there will be a number of opportunities. The PM has committed to give a vote on the final deal - and rightly this must be a take it or leave it vote. Given that we all know this will take years - if we do come out and you do not like it - then I am sure that either or both of the LibDems and Labour will be campaigning on a ticket to take us back into the EU and you can vote accordingly - that would be the vote on the deal - so you cannot claim that there will not be the opportunity.

You can be sure that the EU will leave the door open for re-entry in 2022, indeed having expected to win in 2016 and then throughout 2016 to 2017 though the actions of their sycophants, the EU who have been very good at playing the 'long-game' for decades, will most likely see 2022 as their final opportunity and plan accordingly. I can see them pushing to get some arrangements in place that secure our money until then whilst not giving materially on their core principles and then planning to offer 'time-bound opt outs' on all areas deemed key to the UK, e.g. immigration controls. This might see a resurgent Labour win on a re-joining, ticket or a LibLab pact supported by the EU promises. Of course the 'time-bound opt-outs' will expire and we will be back on the full integration journey.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Their mandate is to implement their policies that are in their Manifesto.

And we're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU - a trading union.

An MP's commitment is to represent their electorate not to implement the Government's manifesto. Also,manifesto commitments frequently change, often through the course of events. At least, during the most important two years of negotiating future terms the prime minister hasn't put the entire process on hold for ten weeks, for shameless self interest!

 

[Damocles]

An MP's commitment is to represent their electorate not to implement the Government's manifesto. Also,manifesto commitments frequently change, often through the course of events. At least, during the most important two years of negotiating future terms the prime minister hasn't put the entire process on hold for ten weeks, for shameless self interest!

But an MP is elected on the policies in their manifesto.

 

[mcfc1632]

Regarding mandates and votes, IMO, it is all quite straightforward if you look at it with objective eyes:

June 2015 - GE, which at the core of the Tory Manifesto was commitment to a Referendum

June 2016 - EU membership referendum

June 2017 - GE specifically called to give a mandate for the negotiations

June?? 2019 - Parliament vote on the deal

June 2022 - GE allowing an option to re-join the EU

Assuming that the June GE delivers a Tory victory this will mean that on 3 occasions over 2 years the UK electorate have given a clear direction to the UK government that it wishes to exit the EU.

It must also be recognised that on these 3 occasions the commitment of the UK Electorate towards leaving has clearly increased, whilst at the same time the electorate has gained an increased level of understanding of the implications

In the upcoming election can people really claim that the electorate are ignorant on Brexit?? We have had it stuffed down our throats non-stop

How can that not be said to be a clear mandate and representative democracy in action??

And it gets better - as I say, if we leave and the electorate does not like the deal - then the option will be there to re-join.

If you genuinely look at this objectively how can anyone on here say that this is not all fair??

IMO, they cannot - people just will not set aside, as Damocles seems to have done, their personal preference and 'get on with it' and support the UK.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

But an MP is elected on the policies in their manifesto.

But if a Lib Dem or SNP member is elected on 'remaining a member of the EU (trading block)' and they vote against any Brexit measures, they are undemocratic and going against the will of the people.
The biggest democratic deficit in all of this of course, is that, whoever wins the election, there will still be an overwhelming majority of MPs who think Brexit is a very bad idea.......

 

[Damocles]

But if a Lib Dem or SNP member is elected on 'remaining a member of the EU (trading block)' and they vote against any Brexit measures, they are undemocratic and going against the will of the people.
The biggest democratic deficit in all of this of course, is that, whoever wins the election, there will still be an overwhelming majority of MPs who think Brexit is a very bad idea.......

You have no possible way of knowing this. It's literally political fan fiction.

 

[mcfc1632]

But if a Lib Dem or SNP member is elected on 'remaining a member of the EU (trading block)' and they vote against any Brexit measures, they are undemocratic and going against the will of the people.
The biggest democratic deficit in all of this of course, is that, whoever wins the election, there will still be an overwhelming majority of MPs who think Brexit is a very bad idea.......

I am not sure that you have that correct.

Undoubtedly there were a large number of MPs that voted Remain in 2016 and certainly lot of them, particularly Labour ones, did not reflect the views of their constituencies

I am sure that a lot of them were passionate about Remain, others - perhaps even the PM - might have been less so but were 'going with what they thought was the winning ticket.

In 2017, I think that this will be a lot different and MPs will not be so casual about ignoring the views of their constituencies - this is at the core of Labour's dilemma since June - scared to not support Brexit.

The tide is turned I would think. Those that are genuinely passionate about Leave or Remain will stay that way - those that are going with the flow? well the flow of public opinion at the moment is towards Leave

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

You have no possible way of knowing this. It's literally political fan fiction.

A thread on Brexit where only known facts can be posted would have closed down on the 24th June, to be fair. As for 'fan fiction', I suppose I was just positing a position on the evidence we have, as of today. On the 22nd of June, 479 members of parliament, who'd declared, were in favour of remaining part of the EU and 158 were in favour of leaving. Of those, the conservative remainers still had a majority of 50. They might have all changed their minds of course, like the sainted leader, or all the newly elected ones might also be Brexiteers, but you'd suspect not.

 

[bluethrunthru]

well the EU hand is somewhat strengthened by Trumps assertion that the EU comes before the UK in any trade deals. He likes deals and likes doing big deals does old Donny and he can try and get more US exports if he can trade with 27 states rather than just one which means the EU have that card in their hand already.

 

[The perfect fumble]

in the full knowledge that she is entering into the negotiations and seeking a stronger mandate to act robustly - is that not exactly representative democracy in action.

A stronger mandate to act robustly! That is meaningless and you know it.

When leaders appeal to the people on the bases of strength rather than policy, when they ask for a mandate to circumvent one of the three pillars of our democratic system, the legislature, and all this from a leader who has already shown disdain for the third pillar, the judiciary, and this perpetrated with the fourth estate either neutered or in the hands of multi millionaires looking for favours (Fox wants Sky for £11.7bn, presently in stasis over "public interest" )......Ask yourself is this the sign of a healthy democracy? Would you accept this if you were on the other side of the argument? Ask yourself where a road like this leads.

What May is saying is she can't do whatever it is she wants to do, without dismantling our system of government and very possibly dismantling the United Kingdom.

A stronger mandate to act robustly is not the rhetoric of democracy, it is the rhetoric of authoritarianism.

 

[smudgedj]

Is that the same Paul Ryan who guaranteed to overturn Obamacare? I'm not sure he's a man to be taken at his word.

Text book strawman, can't overturn Obamacare therefore tells fibs in the UK about 'United States stands ready to forge a new trade agreement'

 

[mcfc1632]

A stronger mandate to act robustly! That is meaningless and you know it.

When leaders appeal to the people on the bases of strength rather than policy, when they ask for a mandate to circumvent one of the three pillars of our democratic system, the legislature, and all this from a leader who has already shown disdain for the third pillar, the judiciary, and this perpetrated with the fourth estate either neutered or in the hands of multi millionaires looking for favours (Fox wants Sky for £11.7bn, presently in stasis over "public interest" )......Ask yourself is this the sign of a healthy democracy? Would you accept this if you were on the other side of the argument? Ask yourself where a road like this leads.

What May is saying is she can't do whatever it is she wants to do, without dismantling our system of government and very possibly dismantling the United Kingdom.

A stronger mandate to act robustly is not the rhetoric of democracy, it is the rhetoric of authoritarianism.

"A stronger mandate to act robustly! That is meaningless and you know it."

Fumble I am not always sure you know what you are saying - hence my post earlier about your inconsistencies on Representative Democracy - I am absolutely certain you do not know how/what I think and say - apart from the way you want to interpret things which were not intended. It was a sentence of 6 letters - all made perfect sense.

I think that you are in the same place as bluethrunthru on the GE thread.

I just commented to him:

"You might not like it - you might well hate it - and I can understand that. It must very frustrating when you hold the views you do.

May is going to win and possibly/probably secure all the other aspects, apart from negotiating Brexit, that she wants to - all without having to do some tub-thumping campaigning - very frustrating."

You must be screaming inside your head - after all these months of trying to assure yourself that 'anytime now' the nation will turn against Brexit - and yet.........

Trying to convince us all about when the Corbyn/Labour principles come to the fore the electorate will flock........... oops

But look on the bright side - after all your protestations about why the referendum vote went wrong - which have all been running a bit low on substance recently, not long from now you will have the opportunity to explain to us how the GE all went wrong - a change is as good as a rest and all that.