Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

  • Thread starter Thread starter blueinsa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The article ends by stating "we should overturn the referendum result".

If we had voted remain would it have ended with "we should leave the EU"?

Would it even have been written?

People didn't vote leave because some tech heads manipulated facebook. They voted because for 40+ years the 'intelligent' people told them they were racist and stupid for wanting to express their views and concerns. "Do as we tell you and you will be fine. We will provide you with just enough not to starve and by god you had better be grateful you semi-literate ungrateful northern working class monkey scum".

It's always ironic to me that the so called 'left' (in actuality the camouflaged right) are so pro-EU. Under the EU rules this country would not have been allowed to found the NHS and the great education reforms, not to mention the enormous house building programme after we saw off facism after ww2 as the country was broke and the EU would have forbidden the spending required as we would have been in a debt to GDP ratio higher than they 'allow'.

The EU is now, was then, and forever will be a refuge for the right, hard right and ultra right of Europe to subjugate and control the working people of the continent. Racist to its core. Demonstrably favouring free movement of (white) people to and at the detriment of non-european (mainly brown) people.

People can either see this and agree with it (racist) or cannot see it and don't understand it (ignorant).

They could of course be both but cannot possibly be neither.
 
dave_blue12 said:
I also do not believe that everyone that voted in a certain way was manipulated.

What I do believe, and there is a lot of evidence to back up the belief, is that certain people were identified as persuadable and then bombarded with messages to sway them in a certain direction without them ever being aware of what was going on.

The problem with all this is that if we are on social media (and I am) then we are all potential targets.

I don't care about the politics of the journalists or what football team they support. I care about democracy.

This is not about Brexit. This is about democracy !
Click to expand...

Democracy is about freedom to make a choice and people made a choice, the reasoning behind that is completely irrelevant. The lies on both sides were considerable and in the end people made their choices so for this article to say democracy was not respected is rubbish. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you should.

This article is certainly an attack on the intelligence and democratic right for people to make a choice. Whether mass media had any effect is irrelevant, people make their choices based upon the information they are presented with amongst many other personal factors.

Some people will of made their choice potentially by just flipping a coin, who is anyone to say that vote is invalid?
 
dave_blue12 said:
Try actually reading all the reports. These people who you dismiss are possibly some of the few truly investigative journalists we have left.

The following para is from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...voter-manipulation-eu-referendum-social-media

It is happening and will continue to happen. We ignore it at our peril.

When interviewed by Cadwalladr, Leave.EU’s communications director admitted Facebook was the key to the entire campaign. A Facebook “like” was their most potent weapon. “Using artificial intelligence, as we did, tells you all sorts of things about that individual and how to convince them with what sort of advert. And you knew there would also be other people in their network who liked what they liked, so you could spread. And then you follow them. The computer never stops learning and it never stops monitoring.”
Click to expand...

I have read up on all this - including this article through the night before you posted it. For me though you would have been better starting a thread for it. It is a significant development / vulnerability across the globe which has many ramifications.

I can see the risks and I am not at all sure not only what the answer is - but where is even the start of the road that could lead to the answer/solution.

The problem I would suggest you may have/cause by posting it on this thread is that there will be some that do not read it - there will be others that think that they have read it but are not really able to absorb it - and there will be others that do see the truly global significance etc.

The problem is that on this thread the global significance is likely to get dumbed down to some excuse / blame of why the 23/06 vote went the way it did.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit to say:

As I say - it would better being a separate thread rather than deflect this one. You say it is not about Brexit, but having posted it on a Brexit thread..................

So on that basis - having seen that some on here are indeed using it in a Brexit manner, by view:

Of course this is what the 'impartial' Guardian is hoping people take away from the final message;

"The EU referendum was a battle of dishonesty. It was won by the side with the means to distribute the most plausible lies."

So there we had it - the entire UK government machine to run Project Fear - able to choose the time of the campaign - able to ensure that the time given to the campaign was the shortest possible - able to muzzle key speakers until the start of the campaign and backed up my the EU.

against

Some very few people with very little budget and few resources and very little time - but heh - they had a bus.

FFS - "...........It was won by the side with the means to distribute the most plausible lies."

Yeah - Only if you are that desperate to think that the side with the means was the Leave side.
 
Last edited:
I think it is truly sad that this issue is bound up with the Brexit argument.

I actually thought about starting a new thread but thought it possible that no-one would read it.

Brexit is done and whilst I find it unfortunate (time will tell) it is done, we are leaving the EU.

However, to ignore the issues raised just because those raising them have a different view is foolish in my opinion.

Carol Cadwalladr's articles appear well researched with names, quotes and supporting evidence. The Electoral Commission and The Information Commission appear to be taking the issue seriously. I cannot therefore dismiss what she is saying even if my politics probably differ somewhat to hers.
 
inbetween said:
Democracy is about freedom to make a choice and people made a choice, the reasoning behind that is completely irrelevant. The lies on both sides were considerable and in the end people made their choices so for this article to say democracy was not respected is rubbish. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you should.

This article is certainly an attack on the intelligence and democratic right for people to make a choice. Whether mass media had any effect is irrelevant, people make their choices based upon the information they are presented with amongst many other personal factors.

Some people will of made their choice potentially by just flipping a coin, who is anyone to say that vote is invalid?
Click to expand...


The article doesn't even infer that people who voted for Brexit were duped it screams it out loud with pictures and graphs. We've heard this rhetoric since the referendum where remainers claim that anyone who voted to leave were not able to make a clear decision and didn't have the cognisant tools to make a mature reasoned difference between right and wrong.
 
inbetween said:
Democracy is about freedom to make a choice and people made a choice, the reasoning behind that is completely irrelevant. The lies on both sides were considerable and in the end people made their choices so for this article to say democracy was not respected is rubbish. Just because someone tells you to jump doesn't mean you should.

This article is certainly an attack on the intelligence and democratic right for people to make a choice. Whether mass media had any effect is irrelevant, people make their choices based upon the information they are presented with amongst many other personal factors.

Some people will of made their choice potentially by just flipping a coin, who is anyone to say that vote is invalid?
Click to expand...

No-one is saying anyones vote is invalid but we have certain rules around elections such as the maximum budgets. Not everything is permissible because actually people can be manipulated.

Subliminal advertising is banned because it can get you to act in a way that you otherwise would not without ever knowing you were being manipulated.

I am sorry you see this as an attack on Brexit and those who voted Brexit. This is not may aim or concern, as I have already said that issue is done. My worry is going forward that we will be manipulated to suit the few. Now many would say we always have been and I have some sympathy for that view but now it appears we are to be manipulated by Billionaires from another country !
 
dave_blue12 said:
I also do not believe that everyone that voted in a certain way was manipulated.

What I do believe, and there is a lot of evidence to back up the belief, is that certain people were identified as persuadable and then bombarded with messages to sway them in a certain direction without them ever being aware of what was going on.

The problem with all this is that if we are on social media (and I am) then we are all potential targets.

I don't care about the politics of the journalists or what football team they support. I care about democracy.

This is not about Brexit. This is about democracy !
Click to expand...
People being persuaded by one side of the argument via 'lies and deceit implemented by hackers with an agenda' has nothing to do with democracy being challenged.

In the end, your own personal vote matters in that you could have been "bombarded" with a certain narrative 99% of the way through the debates yet, in the voting booth, change your mind at the last moment to go against everything you were told, because we're allowed to do that. Human beings have that capability. You don't have to justify your voting decision to anyone. It's not required to have your vote be validated nor does it mean your vote means anything less than anyone elses who may have been more informed, nor should it mean their votes are discounted. THAT would be against democracy. Suggesting that there is an "evil, hidden force at work, manipulating the public with nasty messages designed to penetrate their minds to vote in the way they want them to" and that's why we got the result we did, is outlandish.

My ONLY concern about hacking is if it directly affected the votes via changing them once they had been cast. i.e. fraud. If i've voted one way and hackers changed my vote to give the opposing opinion as it was being counted, then i'd have concerns. I don't care one jot if there are hackers manipulating the press, my facebook feed, I still have the capacity to ignore their message and make my own decision. Some people voted becase they believed a slogan on a bus, some people voted because they did more accurate research and some people voted the way they did because they went "meh, fuck it". Regardless, under our democratic system, all those votes are valid and are counted equally.

It's left up to the analysts to debate whether their votes were 'ethical', 'beneficial' or 'informed'. Doesn't matter to the vote count itself, nor should it. One person, one vote, how that vote is cast has nothing to do with anyone else other than the individual who casts it. All you can do is use your vote to challenge theirs.
 
Last edited:
dave_blue12 said:
No-one is saying anyones vote is invalid but we have certain rules around elections such as the maximum budgets. Not everything is permissible because actually people can be manipulated.

Subliminal advertising is banned because it can get you to act in a way that you otherwise would not without ever knowing you were being manipulated.

I am sorry you see this as an attack on Brexit and those who voted Brexit. This is not may aim or concern, as I have already said that issue is done. My worry is going forward that we will be manipulated to suit the few. Now many would say we always have been and I have some sympathy for that view but now it appears we are to be manipulated by Billionaires from another country !
Click to expand...
There are no rules in this country about your vote being validated due to opinions or influences that meet electoral standards which is kind of the point and the glaring fact that the article refuses to address, rendering its whole argument pointless in what it was aiming to acheive.

We only have rules about legal eligibility to vote and none of them exclude people on the basis of their beliefs.

People being manipulated is only a concern for those who feel every vote needs a justifiable reason in order for it to be counted. Our democracy does not require any such limitations to people casting their votes. You could spend the entirety of the debate in a dark room, completely unaware about any points raised, risks or benefits, ushered into a booth on voting day and make a decision based on a complete whim and that vote is STILL counted and equally valid as someone more informed about the issues.

Your choices in that booth are vote one way, vote the other or choose not to vote at all. Manipulation does not even come into it in terms of votes being validated. The only one allowing 'yourself' to be manipulated is 'you' yourself, because we can choose to ignore what they say.
 
Last edited:
Strong and Stable in a stable and strong way, showing strength and strengthening of positions to provide strong leadership in negotiations that only a strong and stable type of leadership can provide to the people of this country, who are equally strong and stable too, strong, stable, strong so strong and so stable.

Let's face it strong and stable.
 
Magicpole said:
Strong and Stable in a stable and strong way, showing strength and strengthening of positions to provide strong leadership in negotiations that only a strong and stable type of leadership can provide to the people of this country, who are equally strong and stable too, strong, stable, strong so strong and so stable.

Let's face it strong and stable.
Click to expand...
The Tories have Toried this country into becoming a Torydom where only Tories Tory the Tory where Tories benefit. Only the SNP will deliver an independent voice in an independent time, in an independent way, that leaves us independently dependent on independence.

Seriously though, what was that post about?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
People being persuaded by one side of the argument via 'lies and deceit implemented by hackers with an agenda' has nothing to do with democracy being challenged.

In the end, your own personal vote matters in that you could have been "bombarded" with a certain narrative 99% of the way through the debates yet, in the voting booth, change your mind at the last moment to go against everything you were told, because we're allowed to do that. Human beings have that capability. You don't have to justify your voting decision to anyone. It's not required to have your vote be validated nor does it mean your vote means anything less than anyone elses who may have been more informed, nor should it mean their votes are discounted. THAT would be against democracy. Suggesting that there is an "evil, hidden force at work, manipulating the public with nasty messages designed to penetrate their minds to vote in the way they want them to" is outlandish.

My ONLY concern about hacking is if it directly affected the votes via changing them once they had been cast. i.e. fraud. If i've voted one way and hackers changed my vote to give the opposing opinion as it was being counted, then i'd have concerns. I don't care one jot if there are hackers manipulating the press, my facebook feed, I still have the capacity to ignore their message and make my own decision. Some people voted becase they believed a slogan on a bus, some people voted because they did more accurate research and some people voted the way they did because they went "meh, fuck it". Regardless, under our democratic system, all those votes are valid and are counted equally.

It's left up to the analysts to debate whether their votes were 'ethical', 'beneficial' or 'informed'. Doesn't matter to the vote count itself, nor should it. One person, one vote, how that vote is cast has nothing to do with anyone else other than the individual who casts it. All you can do is use your vote to challenge theirs.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid it has everything to do with democracy.

We have rules concerning elections for a reason. The reasons are in the main to prevent the manipulation of the vote.

You may well not be susceptible to subliminal persuasion on this particular issue but others who do not feel so strongly may well be. The Co's who are dealing in this type of Psycho Campaign are not within the UK and so are beyond the reach of the UK Electoral Commission who have sought with little success to investigate this issue.

The process of winning elections is about influencing those who are open to be influenced, 'the floating voter' term is often used. Psycho campaigning recognises and targets those voters through the gathering of data from all available sources and then uses that data to tailor a programme of persuasion without the voter ever knowing what is happening.

A crude example might be used on a parent by associating child abuse with a political party. I believe the methods are much more sophisticated than this but you get my drift.

This type of thing is reprehensible whoever is gaining or losing by it.
 
dave_blue12 said:
I also do not believe that everyone that voted in a certain way was manipulated.

What I do believe, and there is a lot of evidence to back up the belief, is that certain people were identified as persuadable and then bombarded with messages to sway them in a certain direction without them ever being aware of what was going on.

The problem with all this is that if we are on social media (and I am) then we are all potential targets.

I don't care about the politics of the journalists or what football team they support. I care about democracy.

This is not about Brexit. This is about democracy !
Click to expand...

But doesn't this and hasn't this always happened?

Len, Fumble etc.. are in 1 camp and no matter how many 'likes' are posted on Facebook or whatever, they aren't just going to change their view. Same with mcfc1632 or metalbiker, their minds are made up.

It's the easily manipulated who they're targeting but again hasn't that what has always happened with party political broadcasts, the papers lining up to support who they want?
 
dave_blue12 said:
I think it is truly sad that this issue is bound up with the Brexit argument.

I actually thought about starting a new thread but thought it possible that no-one would read it.

Brexit is done and whilst I find it unfortunate (time will tell) it is done, we are leaving the EU.

However, to ignore the issues raised just because those raising them have a different view is foolish in my opinion.

Carol Cadwalladr's articles appear well researched with names, quotes and supporting evidence. The Electoral Commission and The Information Commission appear to be taking the issue seriously. I cannot therefore dismiss what she is saying even if my politics probably differ somewhat to hers.
Click to expand...
Good call, perhaps one of the Mods can strip out the posts associated to this important topic to a new thread so that it can receive the focus it deserves and does not distract this thread.
 
Its pretty obvious we will get no trade deals. Just get out, and max tarrifs on EU imports. A lot of UK businesses need new trading partners outside of the EU otherwise unemployment will rise dramatically, hence we will have major tax rises to pay for it. Tell them that we are not paying a penny for committed spending in the EU. What can they do other than go to war and invade.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
The Tories have Toried this country into becoming a Torydom where only Tories Tory the Tory where Tories benefit. Only the SNP will deliver an independent voice in an independent time, in an independent way, that leaves us independently dependent on independence.

Seriously though, what was that post about?
Click to expand...


Bit early for drink I had thought??
 
inchy14 said:
But doesn't this and hasn't this always happened?

Len, Fumble etc.. are in 1 camp and no matter how many 'likes' are posted on Facebook or whatever, they aren't just going to change their view. Same with mcfc1632 or metalbiker, their minds are made up.

It's the easily manipulated who they're targeting but again hasn't that what has always happened with party political broadcasts, the papers lining up to support who they want?
Click to expand...
Excuse me.............

I am totally open-minded - so long as we leave the EU
 
inchy14 said:
But doesn't this and hasn't this always happened?

Len, Fumble etc.. are in 1 camp and no matter how many 'likes' are posted on Facebook or whatever, they aren't just going to change their view. Same with mcfc1632 or metalbiker, their minds are made up.

It's the easily manipulated who they're targeting but again hasn't that what has always happened with party political broadcasts, the papers lining up to support who they want?
Click to expand...

Careful, dangerous balance is evident in this post!

How much effect is possible to gain by targetting through the evil that is social media is something fro people to argue about.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top