General Election June 8th

[Ricster]

How on earth do you equate capitalism, a system where the individual owns the means of trade and industry, therefore focusing on personal freedoms, and fascism, where the state government has total control over everything? One seeks to help people out of poverty to create personal wealth, the other seeks to take it all away from you. If anything mentioning fascism just highlights the number of similarities it has with communism.

Hey MB. How's things?

Are you saying capitalism is getting people out of poverty? Not in the UK it isn't. In a report issued by the government in March it showed that poverty is on the rise and child poverty is the highest it's been since 2010 with 4 million of our future generations considered living a poor life. Unless I have read your post wrong, capatilism has done nothing to help poor people over recent years, in fact things have gotten a lot worse at an alarming rate.

 

[Metal Biker]

Hey MB. How's things?

Are you saying capitalism is getting people out of poverty? Not in the UK it isn't. In a report issued by the government in March it showed that poverty is on the rise and child poverty is the highest it's been since 2010 with 4 million of our future generations considered living a poor life. Unless I have read your post wrong, capatilism has done nothing to help poor people over recent years, in fact things have gotten a lot worse at an alarming rate.

You're blaming the system of capitalism for 'poverty'? And who is in poverty? Clean water, warm food, shelter and beds to rest. We in this country have no idea what true poverty is. Capitalism is simply the fairest method for allowing the individual the opportunity to help themselves make a better life for themselves, not dependent on anyone else. The harder you work, the greater the reward. That is the essence of capitalism, if businesses or governments are screwing over workers it's the business at fault, not the system itself. But then we have the democratic process to remove governments that are not up to standard or keeping businesses that fail to adhere to fair rules correctly.

Apparently, according to these same statistics, me being on £9,300 a year is a 'poverty wage'. I'm living in poverty because I cannot afford to go abroad on holiday, or own a car or my own home? Really? I can still enjoy the same hobbies, i'm fit and healthy, eat good nutritional food, have clean water to drink and bathe in and I don't feel I have any serious money worries, but i'm still considered to be in poverty. Well, if someone wants to hand me some free money...

If you can tell me how a poor person can work to get themselves out of poverty on another system besides capitalism, i'd love to hear it.

 

[Ricster]

You're blaming the system of capitalism for 'poverty'? And who is in poverty? Clean water, warm food, shelter and beds to rest. We in this country have no idea what true poverty is. Capitalism is simply the fairest method for allowing the individual the opportunity to help themselves make a better life for themselves, not dependent on anyone else. The harder you work, the greater the reward. That is the essence of capitalism, if businesses or governments are screwing over workers it's the business at fault, not the system itself. But then we have the democratic process to remove governments that are not up to standard or keeping businesses that fail to adhere to fair rules correctly.

If you can tell me how a poor person can work to get themselves out of poverty on another system besides capitalism, i'd love to hear it.

But surely we are talking about the residents of the U.K.
I have a very clear idea of what poverty is, having worked for some worldwide NGO's over the last 5yrs and today working for a worldwide charity based in France and is always at the heart of civil wars helping any human beings which sometimes result in the bombing of our hospitals by nations that seem to be Part of the problem.
For me it is capatilism that is causing the class divide in the UK and not helping to close it. With the breaks and cuts we give to the larger corporations and certain areas of the country, capatilism hasn't really helped the country at all and has put us in the mess we are in.
We have had slight right to very right governments since the 80's, and that includes Blair. We have the chance to change but we are always told change is never a good thing.
Neither is almost 40 years of what we've had

 

[Metal Biker]

But surely we are talking about the residents of the U.K.
I have a very clear idea of what poverty is, having worked for some worldwide NGO's over the last 5yrs and today working for a worldwide charity based in France and is always at the heart of civil wars helping any human beings which sometimes result in the bombing of our hospitals by nations that seem to be Part of the problem.
For me it is capatilism that is causing the class divide in the UK and not helping to close it. With the breaks and cuts we give to the larger corporations and certain areas of the country, capatilism hasn't really helped the country at all and has put us in the mess we are in.
We have had slight right to very right governments since the 80's, and that includes Blair. We have the chance to change but we are always told change is never a good thing.
Neither is almost 40 years of what we've had

Apparently, according to these same statistics, me being on £9,300 a year is a 'poverty wage'. I'm living in poverty because I cannot afford to go abroad on holiday, or own a car or my own home? Really? I can still enjoy the same hobbies, i'm fit and healthy, eat good nutritional food, have clean water to drink and bathe in and I don't feel I have any serious money worries, but i'm still considered to be in poverty. Well, if someone wants to hand me some free money...

There were class divides in this country before we adopted capitalism, but it was a capitalist system that has allowed more and more people to work their way out of poverty to provide better lives and living conditions for their families. Again, you're blaiming organisations that take advantage of others and seek to steal their wealth. But that's not capitalism. Capitalism is simply the method that allows the individual person the chance, the opportunity to work themselves or sometimes for themselves, out of poverty and depending on how hard they work they are free in a capitalist society to choose the level of wealthy status they wish to attain.

Socialism means everyone is equal, equally poor. Capitalism has afforded me and others every opportunity to reach a status of wealth we're happiest with. I see Socialism as a return to serfdom, with the Government our masters. As I state before, if you can name a better method other than capitalism that allows the individual the freedom to work as they see fit to attain a level of financial security that they are happy and satisfied with, i'd like to hear it.

 

[Vic]

Bumper bundle time.

It's remarkable that the Brexiters want this election to be about Brexit and the leftie leavers want it to be about people's lives and prosperity.

I'll go through each point on the BBC's Labour manifesto page and give me quick thoughts, so that I'm at least being transparent.

Renationalisation

• Bring the railways back into public ownership as franchises expire and repeal the Railways Act 1993 which privatised the network - I partially agree with the principle, but only for under-performing franchises. There should be a much more stringent testing of the performance and quality of franchise services, and every franchise must have to meet much stricter fare conditions, on-time conditions, number of service and number of seats conditions and if they fail they should be either re-nationalised, or have a private/public collaboration with an existing successful franchise.
• Freeze passenger rail fares, free wi-fi across the network, an end to driver-only operation of trains and improved accessibility for disabled people - Rail fares should be reviewed and remodelled, but a mandatory national freeze creates excess costs. Instead, a simpler fare system should be introduced, and contactless payment should be introduced, along with national rail oyster cards. Paper/card tickets are a nuisance and huge waste of resources and should be banned. Free wifi and improved accessibility is important, as is extending platforms and improving station facilities to improve ticket access. I don't really see the issue around driver-only trains, I know Germany has an excess number of staff but I don't really see their use.
• Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail "at the earliest opportunity" - Why? I haven't experienced a noticeable decline in service since privatisation. I think this is unnecessary.
• Create at least one publicly-owned energy company in every region of the UK, with public control of the transmission and distribution grids - Not for me, just make rules and pricing structures much more transparent and strict.
• Introduce an immediate emergency price cap to ensure the average dual fuel household energy bill remains below £1,000 per year - Again a mandatory limit creates additional costs, conduct a full root and branch review and come up with affordable figures that can be implemented long-term.
• Repeal the Health and Social Care Act 2012 - which restructured the NHS - and "reverse privatisation" of the health service - Create a full re-structure of the NHS. Remove a number of middle management roles and create a minimum level of doctors/nurses/other medical practitioners, put provisions in place to incrementally increase wages to encourage more recruits, and make university and medical school funding dependent on numbers of highly talented and qualified graduates entering professional service. Make private sector opportunities in each region be dependent on them supporting the local NHS, by helping to provide non-essential treatments at a subsidised cost, contributing to GP provisions and additional walk-in centres to relieve strain on NHS hospitals which should solely focus on essential care. Increase care provisions for disabled, mental health and elderly care, again with support from the private sector who would have to contribute if they wanted access to the local market for privately run, for profit care opportunities. I don't think Labour go far enough.

Defence

• Support the renewal of the Trident submarine system - Would only back Labour's view if Corbyn came out and said he's changed policy and would use it.
• Work with international partners and the UN on multilateral disarmament "to create a nuclear-free world" - No harm in trying.
• Commit to the Nato benchmark of spending at least 2% of GDP on defence - Fine.
• Insulate the homes of disabled veterans for free - Cool.

Migration

• 
  
  
  • Labour believes in the "reasonable management of migration" but "will not make false promises on immigration numbers" - Wishy-washy answer, I assume there is more in the manifesto which I've yet to read, but need a much clearer intended plan.
  • Replace income thresholds for bringing family members to the UK with "an obligation to survive without recourse to public funds" - Sounds interesting.
  • Uphold responsibilities under the Refugee Convention and offer a safe haven to those fleeing from persecution and war - Yes, but I'd be interested to hear policy on integration in this respect, and how they intend to ensure we maximise their contribution to society, productiveness and reduce the risk of radicalisation among people who come here with nothing, and have had their lives destroyed.

Brexit

• 
  
  
  • Accept the EU referendum result and "build a close new relationship with the EU" prioritising jobs and and workers' rights - Sounds like an idealist statement, need more concrete information.
  • Guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK and work to "secure reciprocal rights" for UK citizens elsewhere in the EU - Only guarantee these things in a mutually agreed and announced deal.
  • A "meaningful" role for Parliament throughout Brexit negotiations - waffling on talking about things and stuff without actually saying anything.
  • Negotiating priorities to have "a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union" - Good luck with that, all a bit idealist.
  • Negotiate transitional arrangements "to avoid a cliff-edge for the UK economy" if no deal is reached - Good luck.
  • Keep EU-derived laws on workers' rights, equality, consumer rights and environmental protections - Suits me, no reason we can't add to it. Specifics would be nice. Would have liked a commitment to "Freedom to visit, but not freedom to work" and a view that we discriminate against the rest of the world whilst allowing free reign for EU citizens to come here and take any jobs, whilst they should have to abide by the same QC procedures. Also reduce the ability for migrants to send their wages home, putting into place rules to ensure that the Government takes a certain contribution of all payments made out of the UK, and that a minimum amount of earned income must remain in a UK bank account once the person leaves. This, in my view, will stop EU workers under-cutting UK workers and accepting lower wages, or cash in hand jobs which would make them rich in their own country, but undercuts the UK workforce and means the Government loses out on valuable income.

Workers' rights

• 
  
  
  • A 20-point plan for security and equality at work, including an end to zero-hours contracts and equal rights for employees - Disagree with abolishing zero-hour contracts, as they are useful to many people. Instead introduce a requirement for employers offering them to offer 2 contracts to each prospective employee, one zero-hour and one with a minimum number of weekly hours. The employee then chooses which they want and it must be honoured. In addition, employers must offer a balanced range of minimum hours, and would be unable to offer 99% of their roles as for example "minimum 1 hour".
  • Repeal the Trade Union Act and roll out sectoral collective bargaining, whereby industries can negotiate agreement as a whole - I'm a 90s child but wary of trade unions because from my parents experience they were damaging to industry and held the country to ransom. I would rather the Government itself write employees rights into law which private companies would then implement. Other countries have unionisation and are far more productive, I think in the UK they become greedy and hold the rest of the working population to ransom, quite often unfairly.
  • End the public sector pay cap - Needs far more scrutiny and information. What about the private sector, why not mutual agreements and guarantees?
  • Guarantee trade unions a right to access workplaces - why?
  • Enforce all workers' rights to trade union representation at work - Needs developing.
  • Use public spending power to drive up standards, including only awarding public contracts to companies which recognise trade unions - The Labour party obsession with unions is a turn-off. Private companies should only be allowed contracts when they are more efficient and cost-effective than public contracts, and should be banned from competing if they have a track-record of hiking up the price and not completing contracts on time.
  • Shifting the "burden of proof" in the so-called "gig economy" so that the law assumes a worker is an employee unless the employer can prove otherwise - fine.

Education

• Reintroduce maintenance grants for university students and abolish university tuition fees - Agree with re-introducing grants, disagree in abolishing fees, they are not really a burden on students and the money can be better used elsewhere i.e. schools and healthcare.
• A National Education Service to provide "cradle-to-grave learning that is free at the point of use" from early years to adult education - Affordable, how?
• Reduce class sizes to under 30 for all five, six, and seven-year-olds - Class-sizes should be under 30 for everyone.
• Free school meals for all primary school children, paid for by removing the VAT exemption on private school fees - Undecided, perhaps the focus should be more of improving wage and employment conditions in areas where free school meals are required, and educating parents in producing healthy meals for their kids so they can feed themselves.

Health and social care

• 
  
  
  • An extra £6bn annually for the NHS, funded by increasing income tax for the highest 5% of earners and increasing tax on private medical insurance - Extra funding for the NHS is a good thing, but I disagree with raising taxes, I already fork out too much tax as it is and it should be being reduced across the board.
  • An Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) for health to scrutinise spending - OK, but add responsibilities for efficient workforce and provision of treatment.
  • An additional £8 billion over the lifetime of the next Parliament for social care - Are we printing money?
  • Look into creating a National Care Service for social care "rooted in the traditions of our National Health Service" - More waffle, tell me what you actually intend to do.

Social security and pensions

• 
  
  
  • An end to benefit sanctions - which sanctions?
  • Scrap the so-called "bedroom tax" - yes.
  • Reinstate housing benefit for under-21s - at what cost?
  • Guarantee the state pension "triple lock" throughout the next Parliament so that pensions rise by at least inflation, earnings or 2.5% a year, whichever is higher - Hiw about better provisions for the young generation who get much worse pensions and much less security?
  • The winter fuel allowance and free bus passes guaranteed as universal benefits - cool.
  • A commitment to "protect the pensions of UK citizens living overseas in the EU or further afield" - Surely if they're abroad, they can look after themselves?

So all in all, some things I agree with, many I don't or that I feel are poorly developed and need much more meat to them. The manifesto doesn't deal with the major issue of who will be implementing these policies, many of whom are rather unimpressive and lacking credibility, particularly in their own supposed areas of expertise.

I might have read it all but didn't get further than no deterioration in mail services. What? Post delivered at 2 pm? Most postboxes with a 9 am last collection plate? Post offices closed all over the place?

Article 50 thread is thataway.

There's only one outcome to Brexit; the UK leaving the EU completely. There's no negotiation there.

I'd like to negotiate what the alternative is. Not leaving the EU completely? Or leaving the EU not completely? Or completely not leaving the EU? That's as facile as Brexit means Brexit. Red white and blue brexit. Strong and stable Brexit. Suicidal brexit (that'll teach them).

Some people want 40 hours less a week. That's their choice, as it is mine.
Paid holidays, do they include the Bank Holidays that Labour took of us?


Also, why was it when Labour introduced the Minimum Wage, my hourly wage went DOWN to meet it, not up and didn't rise in all the years they were in power? Yet the Conservatives introduced a Minimum Living Wage which, whilst not perfect, has seen my pay rise from £5.85 to £7.50.
These Trade Unions don't seem to be applicable to every company though. Labour had 13 years in power to make this happen but didn't, so my company still, to date anyway, do not approve of setting up a union for it's staff members.

Are you serious? Bank holidays that Labour took off you?

Why did your wage go down? Because you didn't have a union! Let's blame Labour for your crap employer!

I really don't understand this.

"Trade Unions - the people that gave you the weekend!"

 

[Metal Biker]

I'd like to negotiate what the alternative is. Not leaving the EU completely? Or leaving the EU not completely? Or completely not leaving the EU? That's as facile as Brexit means Brexit. Red white and blue brexit. Strong and stable Brexit. Suicidal brexit (that'll teach them).

You didn't understand the question did you. LEAVE the EU, REMAIN a member of the EU. What would the soft remain or hard remain negotiations have been if the result was 52% Remain/48% leave? I'm intrigued? Would our concerns as leavers have been taken into account? Would the EU membership fee be addressed or the migrat...nope, you lost the referendum, we're staying in the EU, now shut up about the whole thing. Freude, schoener, Gottenfunken...

Are you serious? Bank holidays that Labour took off you?

Why did your wage go down? Because you didn't have a union! Let's blame Labour for your crap employer!

I really don't understand this.

"Trade Unions - the people that gave you the weekend!"

Before Labour made the decision, Bank Holidays were optional to work (with double pay), Labour made it legal so that we have to work them and double pay or time and a half was now only optional by the employer, not mandatory.

Before Labour introduced the Minimum Wage, my wage was higher. After it virtually every company reduced the hourly rate. We opposed it, and were told this was the rate now, if you don't like it, find another job. Many of us did only to discover every company was now only offering the lowest Minimum Wage rate. What did Labour introduce to ensure businesses could not take advantage of this situation to ensure that people already on the higher wage before the NMW introduction would not see their wages drop? Nothing. What did the do to ensure other businesses hiring new staff would have to do so based on their new employees previous wage? Nothing. Minimum wage meant wages went down. It did little to protect the 'workers'.

Labour is meant to be all about unions, about going after exploitative companies and business practices but they did nothing during their time in power to introduce mandatory laws or legislations enforcing every employer to allow employees access to union representation. No union helped us unless we were members but our company did not allow us to become union members. Businesses took advantage (as some are want to do, not all) and Labour turned a blind eye. Not a single Greater Manchester Labour MP came out in support.

Also, I have to work weekends. Most service industry jobs make it a mandatory aspect of employment. Explain that.

 

[stonerblue]

Some people want 40 hours less a week. That's their choice, as it is mine.
Paid holidays, do they include the Bank Holidays that Labour took of us? I mean it's nice being given an extra week but it's kind of pointless if your family and friends are celebrating the bank holiday and you're forced to work because Labour made it compulsory for those in the retail and service sectors.
Also, why was it when Labour introduced the Minimum Wage, my hourly wage went DOWN to meet it, not up and didn't rise in all the years they were in power? Yet the Conservatives introduced a Minimum Living Wage which, whilst not perfect, has seen my pay rise from £5.85 to £7.50.
These Trade Unions don't seem to be applicable to every company though. Labour had 13 years in power to make this happen but didn't, so my company still, to date anyway, do not approve of setting up a union for it's staff members. Mind you, we're being taken over so that might change, who knows.

The 1970's version of Labour is not the Labour I associate with and if it chooses to adopt these principles and ideologies it has lost this Labour voter. Mind you most Labour fanatics tell us all to "fuck off and vote Tory if we don't like Corbyn".

Okay then, we will, just don't be surprised or blaming the Russians if the Conservatives DO get a landslide victory.

When did that happen??

 

[Metal Biker]

When did that happen??

Mid 2000's.

Bank Holidays (only in the retail/service sectors) were now mandatory to be worked. We work half (minimum) and the other half are given as an extra week so we get 28 days instead of 21. Soudns great, but the point of Bank Holidays is to be with family and friends. Kind of pointless to have an extra week off (on lowest weekly hours) in the middle of October when all your friends are working.

It'd be nice to have the option, is what i'm trying to say. For example since April i've worked every single Bank Holiday weekend with no option to request it off unless using my holiday entitlement, which kind of defeats the purpose, and they are usually denied since it's seen as the 'busy' period. It tends to go up on the wall that all holiday request for the bank holiday weekend are blocked. At best we can swap shifts which means we get the day off, unpaid.

 

[Metal Biker]

But enough about all that, the point is this incarnation of the Labour Party and even the one previous, seems to have 'forgotten' a segment of the British public workforce. What's worse is that now they see us as uncouth, uneducated and, well we all know the other one. It's hard for me to either trust, associate or even latch on to the message the Labour Party has, because there is no message for me or people like me in a similar position. It's to make themselves and their chummy middle class socialites feel good about themselves.

"we'll BAN zero hours contracts"
Don't do that, some people need those! They're a lifeline for people who unexpectedly need a week off but don't want to run the risk of losing their employment status.
"We'll raise taxes on businesses!"
Oh great, so that's my hours that'll drop then AND working with skeleton staff numbers. Because companies will want to claw back that profit somehow, and it's usually our wages they claw it from. I've experienced it before.

Don't go after the ones who are paying us our wages because they'll just get it back somehow, usually from cutting hours, staff or both.

 

[Ricster]

Apparently, according to these same statistics, me being on £9,300 a year is a 'poverty wage'. I'm living in poverty because I cannot afford to go abroad on holiday, or own a car or my own home? Really? I can still enjoy the same hobbies, i'm fit and healthy, eat good nutritional food, have clean water to drink and bathe in and I don't feel I have any serious money worries, but i'm still considered to be in poverty. Well, if someone wants to hand me some free money...

There were class divides in this country before we adopted capitalism, but it was a capitalist system that has allowed more and more people to work their way out of poverty to provide better lives and living conditions for their families. Again, you're blaiming organisations that take advantage of others and seek to steal their wealth. But that's not capitalism. Capitalism is simply the method that allows the individual person the chance, the opportunity to work themselves or sometimes for themselves, out of poverty and depending on how hard they work they are free in a capitalist society to choose the level of wealthy status they wish to attain.

Socialism means everyone is equal, equally poor. Capitalism has afforded me and others every opportunity to reach a status of wealth we're happiest with. I see Socialism as a return to serfdom, with the Government our masters. As I state before, if you can name a better method other than capitalism that allows the individual the freedom to work as they see fit to attain a level of financial security that they are happy and satisfied with, i'd like to hear it.

Definition of poverty - the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.

 

[Ricster]

We also have an estimated 120,000 homeless kids on our streets.
We also have a 3rd of children now believed to be going to school on an empty stomach, without breakfast.

You see MB what you talk about is absolute poverty which is the likes of no shelter, dirty drinking water, etc.

What we talk of in the UK is poverty and that is poverty created by the right wing governments from the past. Including "New Labour"

 

[SWP's back]

mainly because they have friends in high places

Erm. You may want to check that.

 

[SWP's back]

But if that is true surely capitalism is an extension of fascism . some of the biggest fascists in history have taken over the running of their countries and enforced their own version of capitalism on all ?

I've seen some posts that are confused in my time but that takes the biscuit.

No fascists in history have implemented Capitalism. You either don't understand Capitalism, or Fascism or both.

 

[SWP's back]

Definition of poverty - the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.

That's not the definition used for the figures you quoted.

If you're going to quote the figures for (relative) poverty, then you really should know what (relative) poverty means in the context you are using it.

Labour used to define poverty as "an income of 60% or less of the national average". (Which would mean that anyone earning $72,000 take home pay per year was in poverty in the country I live in and shows why that measure of "poverty" was arbitrary and not particularly useful.)

So, I'll set you some home work. Go and find the definition of poverty that your figures use. It will be wildly different to the definition that all your NGO's and the peace core work to, that's for sure. Also see if you can find the difference between relative and absolute poverty.

 

[bronco]

H

How on earth do you equate capitalism, a system where the individual owns the means of trade and industry, therefore focusing on personal freedoms, and fascism, where the state government has total control over everything? One seeks to help people out of poverty to create personal wealth, the other seeks to take it all away from you. If anything mentioning fascism just highlights the number of similarities it has with communism.

Hitler ,Pinochet , Franco all overthrew the old order and enforced their own version of capitalism on the population- totally undeniable?

 

[bronco]

I've seen some posts that are confused in my time but that takes the biscuit.

No fascists in history have implemented Capitalism. You either don't understand Capitalism, or Fascism or both.

See my answer to previous

 

[bronco]

Mid 2000's.

Bank Holidays (only in the retail/service sectors) were now mandatory to be worked. We work half (minimum) and the other half are given as an extra week so we get 28 days instead of 21. Soudns great, but the point of Bank Holidays is to be with family and friends. Kind of pointless to have an extra week off (on lowest weekly hours) in the middle of October when all your friends are working.

It'd be nice to have the option, is what i'm trying to say. For example since April i've worked every single Bank Holiday weekend with no option to request it off unless using my holiday entitlement, which kind of defeats the purpose, and they are usually denied since it's seen as the 'busy' period. It tends to go up on the wall that all holiday request for the bank holiday weekend are blocked. At best we can swap shifts which means we get the day off, unpaid.

Sounds like you need a decent trade union to represent you ?

 

[bronco]

Erm. You may want to check that.

How else do large organizations get away with it then ?

 

[bronco]

But enough about all that, the point is this incarnation of the Labour Party and even the one previous, seems to have 'forgotten' a segment of the British public workforce. What's worse is that now they see us as uncouth, uneducated and, well we all know the other one. It's hard for me to either trust, associate or even latch on to the message the Labour Party has, because there is no message for me or people like me in a similar position. It's to make themselves and their chummy middle class socialites feel good about themselves.

"we'll BAN zero hours contracts"
Don't do that, some people need those! They're a lifeline for people who unexpectedly need a week off but don't want to run the risk of losing their employment status.
"We'll raise taxes on businesses!"
Oh great, so that's my hours that'll drop then AND working with skeleton staff numbers. Because companies will want to claw back that profit somehow, and it's usually our wages they claw it from. I've experienced it before.

Don't go after the ones who are paying us our wages because they'll just get it back somehow, usually from cutting hours, staff or both.

Unfortunately you are embroiled in the old " race to the bottom" scenario that has been the basis of the capitalist system since time began - it happened in the 1930s and it is happening again now , the reason labour" doesn't help you " is because it hasn't been allowed to for about 40 years - the blair/brown years were a total sham with very few socialist policies , Corbyn will change this given the chance . We have a whole generation of people who are totally oblivious to the fact that we once had a system in place that actually benefited workers and big business still made loads of money ? You can actually have both.

 

[urban genie]

I've seen some posts that are confused in my time but that takes the biscuit.

No fascists in history have implemented Capitalism. You either don't understand Capitalism, or Fascism or both.

On these threads I don't often agree with you but you're right he's got this slighty wrong.

capitalism is an economic system that can influence an ideology but not specifically part of it, some facist states throughout industry have allowed capitalism and private ownership of business to be used , as long as it is for the betterment of the state.

But facism is an ideology of how a nation should be, not an economic system.

Umfortunately in the last 30 years both facist and marxist/trotskyite have become the common way to wrongly slag off the left or the right wing respectively, while not recognocnisobg the difference between conservatism, socialism, libralism, marxism, facism, etc all different ideologies.

where as you then have different economic systems, capitalism, mercantism(thunk spelt right, sydicalism, socialist economic system, communism (an ideology linked directly to ecomonic systems), facist socialisation, never mind all the modern offshoots to boot.

A capitalist can be a facist but they are not intertwined that all capitalist are, ideologically some tories lean to a far right mindset as some labour lean to a far left.


Tories are still bad for the nation and it's people though