Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[mcfc1632]

You love undertones because you refuse to accept what my dad used to call the bleedin obvious, it's all noises off and slights of hand with you. When the evidence of our weakness is there for all to see and when the major players from across the Channel harden their stance with every utterance, you rush to hide behind cod psychology and start leafing through your well thumbed copy of Negotiating for Idiots. You are ideologically hardwired not to take our opponents (because that is what they've become) at face value, because, let's be honest, that would require accepting what a fool you've been, so instead, you pathologically refuse to see what's staring you in the face and instead engage in a ridiculous exercise of second guessing intentions and reading between the lines.

You know sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes when powerful people sitting opposite a negotiating table tell you you're fucked, that is precisely what you are.

In the circumstances leading up to these negotiations, it may indeed be as you suggest – that I love undertones because I am unable to recognise the bleedin obvious

Your opinion and you are welcomed to it. I stated that my views posted were my opinion - must you seek to suppress any opinions that you do not agree with

A further opinion of mine is that you repeatedly demonstrate to us all that you do not have even the slightest ability to think outside your very very narrow prejudices and a very very limited ability to analyse matters and draw objective conclusions.

Whereas doing such objective analysis of emerging information (including the ability to read ‘undertones’) and drawing up negotiating plans based on them is what I have done for a living for many successful years.

Based on that experience I would say that you are simply without any of the attributes required for people to consider your ramblings to be anything other than blustering nonsense.

Anyway, get on with it but, frankly, there are people on here who’s view of my credibility to comment on negotiations I would be particularly interested in – you are most certainly not one of them. A while ago, when you did one of your flouncing departures, you also stated that you were not going to respond to me again. Re this latter point can you not for once just deliver on something you say?

Or if you must respond – why not respond to the negotiating question I put to you but which you are dodging – understandably IMO, as whilst you have only a very narrow ability to assess matters, it might just stretch to understanding that you would embarrass yourself

 

[mcfc1632]

Your use of the words "come back" and "concessions" tells me they've always been opponents with you.

What do they look like from the POV of someone that has their head so far up the EU's arse?

 

[mcfc1632]

"Cameron came back from the EU without any concessions" it isn't a difficult set of words. Placing spin on facts and extrapolating that you have deduced a meaning that wasn't there behind them isn't impressive, quite the opposite.

TBF - that is as good as fumble can get at reading 'undertones'

It is flawed because it is limited from a thought process that has only 3 steps

1. That comment I do not like as it is counter to my passion - I must immediately trash it

2. I will do that by making a witheringly (in his mind) snide comment that will put the offender down where he/she belongs

3. Is there a silly GIF or picture I can post as well?

 

[Metal Biker]

TBF - that is as good as fumble can get at reading 'undertones'

It is flawed because it is limited from a thought process that has only 3 steps

1. That comment I do not like as it is counter to my passion - I must immediately trash it

2. I will do that by making a witheringly (in his mind) snide comment that will put the offender down where he/she belongs

3. Is there a silly GIF or picture I can post as well?

4. Nothing has worked, they are still debating me! Resort to 'Hail Mary' of insulting them personally.

 

[The perfect fumble]

In the circumstances leading up to these negotiations, it may indeed be as you suggest – that I love undertones because I am unable to recognise the bleedin obvious

Your opinion and you are welcomed to it. I stated that my views posted were my opinion - must you seek to suppress any opinions that you do not agree with

A further opinion of mine is that you repeatedly demonstrate to us all that you do not have even the slightest ability to think outside your very very narrow prejudices and a very very limited ability to analyse matters and draw objective conclusions.

Whereas doing such objective analysis of emerging information (including the ability to read ‘undertones’) and drawing up negotiating plans based on them is what I have done for a living for many successful years.

Based on that experience I would say that you are simply without any of the attributes required for people to consider your ramblings to be anything other than blustering nonsense.

Anyway, get on with it but, frankly, there are people on here who’s view of my credibility to comment on negotiations I would be particularly interested in – you are most certainly not one of them. A while ago, when you did one of your flouncing departures, you also stated that you were not going to respond to me again. Re this latter point can you not for once just deliver on something you say?

Or if you must respond – why not respond to the negotiating question I put to you but which you are dodging – understandably IMO, as whilst you have only a very narrow ability to assess matters, it might just stretch to understanding that you would embarrass yourself

Are you talking to yourself again? What are you on about?

 

[The perfect fumble]

What do they look like from the POV of someone that has their head so far up the EU's arse?

I'm too busy undermining the British way of life to reply now, I'll get back to you after I've finished lacing my local Tesco's Cornish pasties with evil smelling garlic.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Interesting article in the FT....

https://www.ft.com/content/170ba108-1ee1-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9

Britain will have to budge and make concessions despite howls of protest

Brexit is bad news, but in a happy scenario, the UK and the EU 27 will come away with an agreement that they believe serves their respective interests reasonably well. The alternative is worse: Britain leaves in poor grace and remains in the EU’s bad books for a long time.....

In any case, while there was no truth in Theresa May’s boast in January that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, the sentiment is closer to reality for the EU 27 than it is for the UK. So, to get an agreement, which Britain needs, it must make concessions.....

The EU demand for a financial divorce settlement is reasonable in principle and objectively small, but has already met stiff resistance in government....

Mrs May understands this logic well. She has highlighted the loss of influence Britain will suffer over the EU......

It is not her only concession. The prime minister has accepted that a trade agreement will be negotiated only after Brexit. There was never any doubt about this, but the acknowledgment is valuable in bringing the two sides closer together. She has also come close to agreeing Britain will remain in the customs union and bound by single market rules, including free movement of people, for a transition period after Britain leaves the EU (so long as people call it an “implementation period”). The UK has little choice in the matter as it could not set up functioning customs and work permit systems within two years, so it was wise to make a virtue out of necessity.....

At some stage soon, Britain will have to face these facts. It will also have to agree not to turn itself into a tax haven or seek to be a European business hub based on lax social and environmental regulation — this would be a bad basis for a favourable modern trade deal with any other country. It is not yet clear whether the British government fully understands the logic of Brexit negotiations. Behind the rhetoric of mutual advantage, it needs to make many concessions if it wants to maintain preferential access to European markets outside the EU. If Mrs May can face down the inevitable domestic howls, she will put herself in a position to make the best of a bad job.
...........................

What about Rule Britannia, Red, White and Blue Brexit, this green and pleasant land free and sovereign, the centre of global free trade?

The FT! What a bunch of snivelling socialists! What's all this best of a bad job nonsense eh? Can't they read the undertones? They're traitors to their class!

 

[smudgedj]

Interesting article in the FT....

https://www.ft.com/content/170ba108-1ee1-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9

Britain will have to budge and make concessions despite howls of protest

Brexit is bad news, but in a happy scenario, the UK and the EU 27 will come away with an agreement that they believe serves their respective interests reasonably well. The alternative is worse: Britain leaves in poor grace and remains in the EU’s bad books for a long time.....

In any case, while there was no truth in Theresa May’s boast in January that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, the sentiment is closer to reality for the EU 27 than it is for the UK. So, to get an agreement, which Britain needs, it must make concessions.....

The EU demand for a financial divorce settlement is reasonable in principle and objectively small, but has already met stiff resistance in government....

Mrs May understands this logic well. She has highlighted the loss of influence Britain will suffer over the EU......

It is not her only concession. The prime minister has accepted that a trade agreement will be negotiated only after Brexit. There was never any doubt about this, but the acknowledgment is valuable in bringing the two sides closer together. She has also come close to agreeing Britain will remain in the customs union and bound by single market rules, including free movement of people, for a transition period after Britain leaves the EU (so long as people call it an “implementation period”). The UK has little choice in the matter as it could not set up functioning customs and work permit systems within two years, so it was wise to make a virtue out of necessity.....

At some stage soon, Britain will have to face these facts. It will also have to agree not to turn itself into a tax haven or seek to be a European business hub based on lax social and environmental regulation — this would be a bad basis for a favourable modern trade deal with any other country. It is not yet clear whether the British government fully understands the logic of Brexit negotiations. Behind the rhetoric of mutual advantage, it needs to make many concessions if it wants to maintain preferential access to European markets outside the EU. If Mrs May can face down the inevitable domestic howls, she will put herself in a position to make the best of a bad job.
...........................

What about Rule Britannia, Red, White and Blue Brexit, this green and pleasant land free and sovereign, the centre of global free trade?

The FT! What a bunch of snivelling socialists! What's all this best of a bad job nonsense eh? Can't they read the undertones? They're traitors to their class!

Ah That will be be the Financial Times whose editor was appointed a Chevalier in the Ordre National de la Légion d’Honneur in honor of his anti Brexit stance.

 

[Len Rum]

Some more evidence - admittedly from how I tend to consider things - that the EU are starting to wake up and realise that the UK actually are leaving and they will have to now take the situation seriously and not just hope the problem goes away.

Merkel starting to get 'exercised':

"The UK will “pay a price” if it moves to restrict EU immigration after Brexit, Angela Merkel said on Wednesday.

In some of her toughest language on Brexit yet, the German chancellor warned that the EU would act to protect its own interests and could create “obstacles” for Britain.

And in a barely veiled threat, she said there could be consequences for the British car industry.

“If the British government ends the free movement of people, that will have its price in relations with Britain,” Mrs Merkel told a meeting of trade union officials in Berlin.

“That's not malicious,” she said. “But you cannot expect to enjoy all the benefits and then say there will be an upper limit of 100,000 or 200,000 EU citizens, no more, or we’ll only accept researchers, but nobody else. This will not work.”

“We would have to think about what restrictions we could create from the European side to compensate for that,” she said.

“The British car industry relies on supplies from continental European countries. It is up to the British side, who say they want minimum disruption,” she said.

There could even be consequences for British pets, she said. “Currently, the 250,000 pets, cats and dogs, that travel from Britain to the continent or the other way each year are managed within an EU framework,” she said. “Now they'll need hygiene certificates: things we don't even remember.”

The German chancellor was speaking at a meeting of European trade union leaders held under the auspices of Germany’s G20 presidency."

I know some will throw their skirts over their heads and run around screaming 'oh woe is me' - the UK are doomed, but I see this differently. For me it is more a sign that they are at last getting it. They are recognising that they can not just ignore the situation and wait for it all to blow over after they have played hard ball for a couple of years and we have ended up Remaining,

The game's afoot - interesting times ahead

You sound a tad optimistic ( some might say delusional) in your assessment of the EU softening it's negotiating stance.
Still as they say whatever turns you on.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ah That will be be the Financial Times whose editor was appointed a Chevalier in the Ordre National de la Légion d’Honneur in honor of his anti Brexit stance.

So it must be bullshit then.

 

[The perfect fumble]

You sound a tad optimistic ( some might say delusional) in your assessment of the EU softening it's negotiating stance.
Still as they say whatever turns you on.

Len, you can't recognise the undertones like mcfc1632. He detects hints of jasmine and dark chocolate, caramel notes with a suggestion of vanilla and cinnamon and a warm mellow after taste.

 

[mcfc1632]

You sound a tad optimistic ( some might say delusional) in your assessment of the EU softening it's negotiating stance.
Still as they say whatever turns you on.

Oh Len - please keep yourself above fumble's level - I retain the belief you are better than that

Softening?? That could suggest some change in their approach due to goodwill - I did not suggest anything of the sort.

What those with the capability to analyse and assess things might be sensing is that the EU leaders are "..........starting to wake up and realise that the UK are actually leaving and that they will now have to take the situation seriously and not just hope the problem goes away"

There was a clue - these are the precise words I posted

No softening - no goodwill - I am sure Merkel is fucking fuming - also no complacency form my side - just a suggestion.

It is just that some of us have the ability to analyse and assess things beyond our own narrow obsessions. Try thinking it through without the blinkers on. If you cannot get anywhere I will do some Janet and John explaining for you - but firstly have a go yourself at rising above the fumble level. As I say; I retain the belief that you are better than that.

Since my post there has been reports in Germany of:

".....Economists have told Germany's minister for economics and energy, Brigitte Zypries, that a "deep and comprehensive" free trade agreement with the UK is necessary to safeguard Germany's economy, German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine (FAZ) reported..........."

and

"...Hans Gersbach, chairman of the Zypries' advisory board, told FAZ that even during tough negotiations the aim of securing a comprehensive free trade agreement with the UK should not be questioned........."

To help you FAZ is: Frankfurter Allgemeine - the newspaper that was briefed by Juncker's German advisor on the recent meeting at Downing St.

It was just a suggestion from me that Merkel is having to start to face up to the reality of the situation - maybe such lobbying is an influencing factor?.

Do you not find it strange, I am sure that some on this forum would, that such people are able to start to consider that the UK leaving the EU is becoming a reality that must be managed because it can cause negative impact to Germany and yet you and fumble retain entirely a desperate need to rubbish the UK?

On a similar subject - with regard to that negotiating question / challenge I put to fumble - I also extended it to you as well a few days ago. Fumble is conveniently claiming some form of amnesia - are you?

Should I repeat it?

 

[mcfc1632]

Ah That will be be the Financial Times whose editor was appointed a Chevalier in the Ordre National de la Légion d’Honneur in honor of his anti Brexit stance.

fumble slags off the Mail, Sun and Express on their reporting on Brexit - and then quotes the FT

With regards Brexit they have been in a league of their own in being pro-EU / anti-Leave

 

[The perfect fumble]

fumble slags off the Mail, Sun and Express on their reporting on Brexit - and then quotes the FT

With regards Brexit they have been in a league of their own in being pro-EU / anti-Leave

Omnipotent one? Tell me,what daily rag is it permissible to quote then?

The rich diversity of the press.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Oh Len - please keep yourself above fumble's level - I retain the belief you are better than that

He's a fierce drinker, broken teeth, bald as a coot and covered in tattoos....

 

[The perfect fumble]

Do you not find it strange, I am sure that some on this forum would, that such people are able to start to consider that the UK leaving the EU is becoming a reality that must be managed because it can cause negative impact to Germany and yet you and fumble retain entirely a desperate need to rubbish the UK?

I see we're back to the enemies within.

That's the problem with stupidity, it's relentless.

 

[mcfc1632]

Irony always gets you in the end

Unsurprisingly you skipped over the substance in my post, which evidenced that there are leading economists in Germany lobbying in public via mainstream newspapers for a:

"deep and comprehensive" free trade agreement with the UK is necessary to safeguard Germany's economy"

Substance and facts are not your bag, but others are interested and it would, IMHO, help the thread if you could limit the amount of distraction from substance with your silly posts

 

[west didsblue]

There seems to be this prevalent view amongst the remainers who can't accept the referendum result that the EU are more bothered about punishing the UK than coming to a deal that's acceptable to both sides and for this reason they hold all the negotiating cards. This may be true of some of the politicians (Juncker et al) but at the end of the day it's money that talks and the EU won't cut off their nose to spite their face. Now that France has overwhelmingly elected a pro Europe President following a similar vote in Austria a few months ago, there isn't the same political need to teach us a lesson to scare off other countries from following us on the exit path. It won't be an easy negotiation but I fully expect that an agreement will be made that both sides will claim as a victory but will fall short of what both sides really want.

 

[blueonblue]

Now that France has overwhelmingly elected a pro Europe President following a similar vote in Austria a few months ago, there isn't the same political need to teach us a lesson to scare off other countries from following us on the exit path.

France benefits from the EU agricultural policies, so while there is a lot of anti EU feelings they voted to keep xmas much like a turkey wanting presents would, it was far more a vote of different groups wanting to oppose Le Pen than any real support for a pro EU candidate.

Far more interesting will be the German elections, there is far more anti EU feelings than the mainstream media is reporting, and with the prospect of having to fund more of the EU budget, the fall out of the open door immigration policy, and the exposure of German banks to the Greece situation, there is now the threat to jobs if they lose the UK trade, plus the small matter of the little fat woman being as popular as a turd in a swimming pool.

 

[Len Rum]

There seems to be this prevalent view amongst the remainers who can't accept the referendum result that the EU are more bothered about punishing the UK than coming to a deal that's acceptable to both sides and for this reason they hold all the negotiating cards. This may be true of some of the politicians (Juncker et al) but at the end of the day it's money that talks and the EU won't cut off their nose to spite their face. Now that France has overwhelmingly elected a pro Europe President following a similar vote in Austria a few months ago, there isn't the same political need to teach us a lesson to scare off other countries from following us on the exit path. It won't be an easy negotiation but I fully expect that an agreement will be made that both sides will claim as a victory but will fall short of what both sides really want.

Strange post in a way.
I thought you were going to say that because both sides were ( in your view) of equal strength in negotiations ( i.e. EU not stronger than UK) then a good deal would be struck between both sides. But then you went on to say that you expected a lose lose deal. I agree with you on that point , it's just that your argument seemed to suggest the opposite.