Virgil van Dijk

[Danamy]

I don't understand your point. VVD & Denayer were a young, up & coming partnership which we could & should have brought to City, we had close links already.

We chose others instead. Denayer was pushed around & has gone backwards, VVD has improved as you would expect. He would have played plenty at City, & possibly become our main cb by now when VK was missing. I believe both he & JD would have made it if brought in together

It's a big miss imo & I recon one of many during that period.

What's to say if VvD came here back then he may have gone backwards in the same way Denayer has, as it happens he's now matured into a good all-round CB and his time at Southampton has shown he can play in a Pep side with no issues. Vinny along with others have come out and said you have to be in a certain mould to play in a Pep defence and this lad ticks all the boxes, he's more of a Pep style defender than a Mancini one, the timing and the era is chalk and cheese?

 

[domalino]

Sure. Bonucci, but I think we all know how difficult that transfer would be to pull off.

Bonucci comes with a whole other set of risks too. Very few italians have settled well in the Premier League, very few defenders who were good in Serie A have transferred that to England where there's certainly a very different set of challenges, and it remains to be seen how much of an effect Juventus' own collective defensive brilliance has lead to Bonucci getting acclaim.

And it's not even just Bonucci - he's got a wife and 3 kids, and any one of them not settling could be a reason for the transfer to fail. His youngest has serious health problems, never know if that could spring up again.


I personally think he's an absolutely cracking player and would be fine on the pitch, but it's certainly something to pause for thought on when comparing him to the more "sure thing" that is VVD.

 

[ak93city]

They don't have they money to though, simple as that. They don't have the cash to pay Monaco and don't have the room in their budget, they'd have to sell Messi or Neymar and the only cash buyers would be ourselves or PSG.

But, aren't we under FFP just like Barca?
Meaning we can spend from only what we earn, same as Barca, who earn more than us?

 

[mosssideblue]

there is no way ota is more secure then stones. stones is peps signing and its clear from khaldoons interview they rate him very highly. if we pay 50m for a young player and then after one season hes at risk.. i just can't see it. otamendi will be the one sold if we buy someone.

Stones might be the future, but at the moment he has a lot to learn to be an accomplished CB. I am not suggesting he is sold, what I am advocating is that Ota is retained as he has the experience and the tenacity - yes, he may still make the silly mistakes, but today (IMO) he is much a safer pair of hands that Stones. Will that reverse? probably but again (IMO), not for some time. If anyone should go, it should be Kolorov.

 

[Mid Wales blue]

He was good at the Swamp, but he was bang average bordering on poor at home to Celtic. Far from convinced that he would provide sufficiently good coverage for whomever becomes our no.1 choice at RB

I think you're doing him an injustice reference the Celtic game. The team put out that night didn't fill us with much hope, 3 right backs another young lad as one of the 3 cb and Nando as the holding midfielder. With the way Celtic pressed us and pressured in the first game, the whole of that right side was setup to fail from the off. In fact the whole of the team looked like it was setup to fail. When bringing youngsters into the team, we need to give them the best possible chance for them to perform, to express them selves, to let them feel match day pressure but not be swamped by it. Set the team strong and bring in one at a time, not pick the weakest team we put out all season and throw the young lads in. Judge Maffeo and Adarabioyo, when they are used correctly and surrounded by the best possible player's.

 

[flobo]

But, aren't we under FFP just like Barca?
Meaning we can spend from only what we earn, same as Barca, who earn more than us?

All clubs can only spend what they earn...not just City and Barca...that's why sponsorship deals are so important

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

that was one game. i dont think thats enough to judge a young player on. he showed against united and on loan he has the potential.

You're making my point. If one game against Celtic isn't enough to determine that he's not good enough, then why is one game against United enough to decide that he is good enough?

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

You're making my point. If one game against Celtic isn't enough to determine that he's not good enough, then why is one game against United enough to decide that he is good enough?

" and on loan". Im basing it on his potential, whether thats with the youth team, first team or on loan. i think hes got a decent chance of making it at city.

 

[domalino]

He was good at the Swamp, but he was bang average bordering on poor at home to Celtic. Far from convinced that he would provide sufficiently good coverage for whomever becomes our no.1 choice at RB

At Celtic when he was playing in a backline with Tosin and Sagna CB's. In a dead rubber where none of our first team played and no one really cared about the result. I wonder why he looked so average?

Don't think he's currently good enough. Back up fullbacks get more game time than any other perceived backup player, the demand on them is immense and so they are rotated almost on a game by game basis, Maffeo is nowhere near good enough at the minute to play 20-30 game for us next season.

back up fullbacks don't play nearly as much as you seem to think. Pochettino is famous for rotating his fullbacks constantly. Until Kyle Walker fell out with Pochettino about wanting to leave he had played 15 league games in 2 season. That's before considering that Pep can play 3 at the back, or Fernandinho at RB if he feels Maffeo isn't quite up to a long stint in the team.

If we as a club have any pretensions at all about wanting academy players in the team, then having Maffeo as a 2nd choice RB is a necessity.

When a player has been brilliant at academy level, brilliant on loan, brilliant when thrown into a derby and then can't get a chance when both players ahead of him are let go, then there is no scenario at all in which we will ever bring anyone through.

If we don't want to bring players through that's fine, if we're just not interested in youth development as a means to anything but selling off players and making a proift then we'd get over it. It's actually the discord between publicly declaring we're desperate to bring someone through and never actually doing it that pisses people off.

 

[NorthamptonBlue]

At Celtic when he was playing in a backline with Tosin and Sagna CB's. In a dead rubber where none of our first team played and no one really cared about the result. I wonder why he looked so average?



back up fullbacks don't play nearly as much as you seem to think. Pochettino is famous for rotating his fullbacks constantly. Until Kyle Walker fell out with Pochettino about wanting to leave he had played 15 league games in 2 season. That's before considering that Pep can play 3 at the back, or Fernandinho at RB if he feels Maffeo isn't quite up to a long stint in the team.

If we as a club have any pretensions at all about wanting academy players in the team, then having Maffeo as a 2nd choice RB is a necessity.

When a player has been brilliant at academy level, brilliant on loan, brilliant when thrown into a derby and then can't get a chance when both players ahead of him are let go, then there is no scenario at all in which we will ever bring anyone through.

If we don't want to bring players through that's fine, if we're just not interested in youth development as a means to anything but selling off players and making a proift then we'd get over it. It's actually the discord between publicly declaring we're desperate to bring someone through and never actually doing it that pisses people off.

Yep - pisses me off too. If the player isn't ready then loan him out, if we don't think he will make it then let him go where he can have a worthwhile career. If we think he is good enough then give him some game time in the first eleven. That's the only way we will ever find out and we will have to live with the inevitable mistakes that any young player is sure to make.

 

[domalino]

Yep - pisses me off too. If the player isn't ready then loan him out, if we don't think he will make it then let him go where he can have a worthwhile career. If we think he is good enough then give him some game time in the first eleven. That's the only way we will ever find out and we will have to live with the inevitable mistakes that any young player is sure to make.

What annoys me is that a large proportion of fans on here seem to think the only way for a player to prove himself on loan is by playing at a team that's better than us!

Numerous times I've seen the same posters advocating sending someone on loan to Holland or Celtic to get them ready for the first team and then say of players coming back from Holland or Celtic that they've not proven anything...

Maffeo in particular is a very low risk player to bring in. He's the kind of fullback who's a defender primarily, he's pretty strong and fast too, so it's not like he's going to be caught 50 yards up the pitch leaving a hole behind him.

 

[mosssideblue]

At Celtic when he was playing in a backline with Tosin and Sagna CB's. In a dead rubber where none of our first team played and no one really cared about the result. I wonder why he looked so average?



back up fullbacks don't play nearly as much as you seem to think. Pochettino is famous for rotating his fullbacks constantly. Until Kyle Walker fell out with Pochettino about wanting to leave he had played 15 league games in 2 season. That's before considering that Pep can play 3 at the back, or Fernandinho at RB if he feels Maffeo isn't quite up to a long stint in the team.

If we as a club have any pretensions at all about wanting academy players in the team, then having Maffeo as a 2nd choice RB is a necessity.

When a player has been brilliant at academy level, brilliant on loan, brilliant when thrown into a derby and then can't get a chance when both players ahead of him are let go, then there is no scenario at all in which we will ever bring anyone through.

If we don't want to bring players through that's fine, if we're just not interested in youth development as a means to anything but selling off players and making a proift then we'd get over it. It's actually the discord between publicly declaring we're desperate to bring someone through and never actually doing it that pisses people off.

Who is getting pissed off - those that believe they are good enough?

Pep needed last season to suss out what tools he had at his disposal and has obviously deemed several fell short, hence our interest in several players. IIRC he said that he needed his first team firing the way he needs to before youngsters will get a shout so, IMO, he is sticking by that, so I wouldn't expect to see any young uns for a while.

 

[mosssideblue]

Yep - pisses me off too. If the player isn't ready then loan him out, if we don't think he will make it then let him go where he can have a worthwhile career. If we think he is good enough then give him some game time in the first eleven. That's the only way we will ever find out and we will have to live with the inevitable mistakes that any young player is sure to make.

That is all well and good but I suspect the club don't want to make mistakes this season and may be why there is some reluctance (if someone is potentially ready to make that leap)

 

[taconinja]

Bonucci comes with a whole other set of risks too. Very few italians have settled well in the Premier League, very few defenders who were good in Serie A have transferred that to England where there's certainly a very different set of challenges, and it remains to be seen how much of an effect Juventus' own collective defensive brilliance has lead to Bonucci getting acclaim.

And it's not even just Bonucci - he's got a wife and 3 kids, and any one of them not settling could be a reason for the transfer to fail. His youngest has serious health problems, never know if that could spring up again.


I personally think he's an absolutely cracking player and would be fine on the pitch, but it's certainly something to pause for thought on when comparing him to the more "sure thing" that is VVD.

I concur fully with everything you say in this post. There are risks associated with a Bonucci transfer to be certain.

 

[OhSoGroovy]

That last point is very interesting because you've got it the completely the wrong way around.

Precisely the reason why many people have a "disdain for stats" is because many of those obsessives who would likely want to base every decision the club makes with regards to playing staff based on the handful of percentages they read simply don't understand them and don't know how to apply them.

Hearing things like "Otamendi was our best defender according to whoscored" and "this guy only has 76% pass accuracy so he isn't a Pep player" are painful to listen to because it's an oversimplification of what is a very complex sport.

I've moaned about the overemphasis of the importance of statistical analysis before and a big reason for that is because we have many posters who think they know enough about a player they've never seen simply by looking at his statistics on a website. It's not a super special formula which proves the worth of a player, it's a bunch of reflective figures which often have zero bearing on the future performances of the player.

For example, compare Bravo's pass accuracy at Sociedad to when he was at Barcelona. How did Barca's coaching staff know he was capable of changing his game and applying their principles to a very high standard? Because they take a hell of a lot more into consideration than just a couple of numbers. Otamendi has been a good example because there doesn't seem to be any widely published collection of statistics which would indicate just how inexplicably amateur his positioning has been in the majority of the matches he has played for us. However, I can't be arsed to go into that because he seems to be a favourite and, to be fair to the guy, I think he has been superb in nearly every game since Monaco at the Etihad.

This is precisely why analysists play a specific role within a club, rather than making the decisions by themselves; these figures are useful tools and not the single pillar with which to hold up any knowledge you think you have on the game and it's players. And you know what? The people Pep works with and the people the club hire to carry out this analsyis do actually know what they're doing and are qualified for that role. They don't just think they know what they're talking about simply because they have access to a couple of websites and therefore think that they don't have to actually watch player play because they're seeing the game for what it really is:

And it's so, so much more than that.

Great post, statistical analysis should always be used in tandem with traditional methods. Highly doubt Arsene strictly signs off on players based off data gathered their StatDNA system.

 

[2001bluesky]

Southampton are being ridiculous to be asking such a price.

 

[cadds92]

Southampton are being ridiculous to be asking such a price.

They have set that price because they don't intend to sell.

If Van Dijk wants the move they will sell for the £50m originally quoted.

 

[OhSoGroovy]

Honestly can't see past VVD, his signing makes so much sense for you guys. Pep has talked many times about how important is to have a physically imposing, & aerially dominant CB due to all the crosses/long balls in the PL. Or something along those lines, & said that they really didn't have that until Kompany was fit & playing. VVD epitomizes that & on the other end, he's one of the biggest threats from set-pieces in the league. His presence is huge. He's consistently been a top 3 CB since he joined Saints, & under two very different managers, with different systems at Saints. Is a top of the line ball-playing CB, can carry the ball to midfield aggressively like David Luiz, long passes for days that are crucial for switching play to isolate one of the wingers in a 1v1, comfortable with the ball when under pressure, etc. Ball-playing CB's with his tools are pretty rare, especially considering how relatively young he is.

He's got it all, & hasn't even hit the general prime for CB's. Would love to see what other facets of his game will improve further under Pep. Either way, money well worth it for this lad.

 

[Easy]

You are both missing the point I was trying (obviously not so well) to make. VVD is a great PL defender I agree. What I was trying to point out though is that last season Ota was our best defender yet some are wanting him sold to bring in VVD (would personally rather see Kolorov go). My point is that whilst VVD is a great PL defender, he had only done that for the Saints and there is a huge assumption that he will replicate that for us yet people will let go our best defender to find out whether he could. I'm sure Chelsea thought the same when they took on Torres.

I would love VVD here, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water is all I'm saying.

I'm not fixated by the need to have WC players, I want the best team which IMO, will be a mix of all types.

He was our best defender but that not saying much. His competition was Stones and Kolarov, Kompany was not fit for most of the season. Kolarov is not even a CB and Stones just made the step up and did a good job overall but yes Otamendi was better. I am pretty sure VVD would replicate his form this past year for us. He would even improve with Pep's guidance.

Its a tricky situation but Otamendi should be sold IMO. Its not worth selling Kolarov nor would we get much of a fee. He is a great squad player and won't mind behind 4th choice CB before he leaves next summer on a free. Stones and Kompany are staying, so it would be best to sell Otamendi now while we can get a good fee. If he stays, next season he'll be 30, and will play far less games as he would be a 3rd choice CB if VVD comes, maybe even 4th as I am expecting Stones to improve a lot. He value would drop by a significant amount.

Stones will become a world class CB, I am pretty sure of it. Lets not forget the massive changes he endured this season. A lot of pressure, big fee, top club, first time playing Champions League, first time playing more than one game a week,etc. He is 23, needs to improve and he will. Playing with Kompany will do him a world of good so would playing with VVD.

 

[Easy]

Honestly can't see past VVD, his signing makes so much sense for you guys. Pep has talked many times about how important is to have a physically imposing, & aerially dominant CB. Or something along those lines, & said that they really didn't have that until Kompany was fit & playing. VVD epitomizes that & on the other end, he's one of the biggest threats from set-pieces in the league. His presence is huge. He's consistently been a top 3 CB since he joined Saints, & under two very different managers, with different systems at Saints. Is a top of the line ball-playing CB, can carry the ball to midfield aggressively like David Luiz, long passes for days that are crucial for switching play to isolate one of the wingers in a 1v1, comfortable with the ball when under pressure, etc.

He's got it all, & hasn't even hit the general prime for CB's. Would love to see what other facets of his game will improve further under Pep. Either way, money well worth it for this lad.

Good post. He would become world class under Pep and can learn from Kompany as well. Having him along with Walker, 2 players that know the league will make the transitional phase of our defense much, much shorter.

Mendy-Stones-Kompany-Walker

Mendy-Kolarov-VVD-Walker

Mendy-VVD-Kompany-Walker

VVD-Kompany-Stones

So many variations yet all very, very good. Get VVD and we will have the best defense in league.Only Mendy hasn't played in the PL and hopefully he can adapt quickly.


Lets pay the fee and get him in.