Hamann Pineapple
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Anyone know which company is responsible for counting election votes ?
General Election June 8th
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gordondaviesmoustache
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I know the feeling.
I'd love a Prime Minister that didn't have his or her head shoved all the way up the arsehole of the US President.
gordondaviesmoustache
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It's the same one that works united's attendances out.
I'm With Stupid
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National debt has risen 53% since the Tories have been in power. If that's the reason you're voting for them, I'm afraid you've been conned. In fact, in the last 70 years, the Tories have always borrowed more than Labour on average.
Debt rose gradually under the last Labour government, but obviously the financial crash was the main cause, when we bailed out the bank. But what you can see in the graph is that the Tories have literally done the square root of fuck all to stop this upward trend in their time in power, and in fact, since they have been elected by themselves, it's actually gone slightly up again.
M18CTID
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Agree about the police numbers and it's been annoying me this past week or so. In an ideal world, something more would've been done about known jihadis too but I honestly don't think Corbyn would've done a better job on that as it seems our hands are somewhat tied with what action we can legally take. Ridiculous I know, but I doubt it would be any different under a different government. Jezza would probably invite them round for a brew and a chat knowing him (yes, I'm being facetious there but it's not unreasonable to think he'd take an even softer stance on this than the Tories have).
Magicpole
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Most people you ever hear saying, 'they're all the same' usually tell you they don't vote for that reason. It's a cop out, they think this justifies this position as if saying it abdicates them from understanding what they are actually saying.
This, I am ashamed to say, is more prominent in certain parts of the working class. This of course suits the right. They know we are all not the same, they always turn out to vote to ensure the things they want to happen, or even, and more importantly, what they don't want to happen.
If you look at the numbers of people who don't vote, they come overwhelmingly from the ranks of the poorest areas, the very areas you would think had the most to gain from political involvement.
I have always felt more of a connection through shared experience with working class people throughout the rest of the UK, than I do with a third of my own people here in Scotland.
You will hear people talk about the Nats up here, as if they are right wing and rampantly xenophobic. This is a lie and is generated by the same forces that crucify Corbyn. The truth is rather different. We have moved to the SNP because up until now Labour have been right wing. The vast majority of the support for the SNP are former Labour voters. I used to be a member but the party moved to the right, then up here they stood 'Shoulder to shoulder' with the Tories during the Indy ref and Project Fear.
This was an act of betrayal of the working class and any glance at electoral results shows you how they have paid for their collaboration.
As I said to my pal who is a labour councillor, the French don't hate the Germans any more but they still hate the Collaborators.
The great thing that came out of the Ref was it energised the people to become more politically aware. Every age group except the old voted in a majority Yes. The fact the oldest voted for a future the young didn't want caused a lot of anger here.
The Labour Party has now moved to the left, but the dynamics of Brexit, eternal Tory rule and the need to have a group of MP's fighting our corner means SNP will still win a maj of seats. It won't be the 57 out of 59 we did last time, but still a big majority and that will be people who like Corbyn. Who support him, we want him to win and will support every measure in a vote, but we need to do that from a position of strength.
We don't want Brexit at all. That is why we need a left wing group fighting our corner but allies to any other left party against the Tories.
The problem of their all the same, is not so prevelant here, but we have plenty who chime that as an excuse. They moan like fuck but do nothing about it. I always say, if you vote you might not get what you hope for, but if you don't, you definitely won't.
It is even more alarming when you look at the effects of austerity to these communities, yet they have the lowest turnouts. It's as if they have been anithsetised into a docile accepting mindset that they pass into their kids.
Corbyn has not surprised me in the least. The reason is I knew that the strategy of the right wing media was to demonise him because they knew the current set up they want would be under threat. The fact so many people adopted that same mindset is a measure of two things. The power of their manipulation and secondly more worrying, the fact people do not realise this, do not look at what he says, but accept the right wing narrative of what he means and this is always negative.
People are now saying, Corbyn has done well. Corbyn has been inspiring. Corbyn has gone up in my estimation.
He's changed.
He hasn't changed. He is the same man, saying the same things, it's only that we have had more access to actually hearing him without the filter of right wing propoganda.
I have said in another post that the opposite of being weak is Corbyn. To endure all he has had to from the press, from right wing traitors in his party, to demonising him for having dialogue with those who wish us harm in the knowledge that only dialogue ends conflict, history is on his side.
I respect and admire his balls of steel for coming through all that and still fighting to make people's lives better. Those very people who say they are all the same. They are not all the same.
Ok we might not win the fights we need to. We may not achieve all we want for the country, but surely there is enough about us to take to the field. To fight, to turn up and say, fuck you, this isn't fair, we might not defeat you, but we will fucking take you on.
That's how I see it. They want us all to think it's pointless. Well, it's not pointless unless we walk away from that fight.
That saddens me the most.
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BlueHammer85
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Well... Corbyn who is 'weaker' on security will increase police numbers by 10,000
She has only very recently announced changing laws, a week before the election - she had been home secretary for a number of years and has sat on her arse whilst we have let people fighting in Syria back into our country, allowed Islamic hate preachers to radicalize potential terrorists, Christ, even channel 4 did a documentary about Khuram Butt who went and killed loads of people last week - whatever she says now is too late in my opinion.
I really hope Paul Nuttal gets elected in Boston, I think we need him in Parliament putting the government (whoever it is) to task.
Having no UKIP is not good. As like them or not, they forced David Cameron to give people a choice of a Referendum.
Having no UKIP is not good. As like them or not, they forced David Cameron to give people a choice of a Referendum.
Hard brexit will be very painful. But ratcheting up corpration tax just as we leave the EU doesn't seem too clever either.
National debt has risen 53% since the Tories have been in power. If that's the reason you're voting for them, I'm afraid you've been conned. In fact, in the last 70 years, the Tories have always borrowed more than Labour on average.
Debt rose gradually under the last Labour government, but obviously the financial crash was the main cause, when we bailed out the bank. But what you can see in the graph is that the Tories have literally done the square root of fuck all to stop this upward trend in their time in power, and in fact, since they have been elected by themselves, it's actually gone slightly up again.
No.1 % of GDP borrowing has continually gone down since 2010? That's highlighted in every single graph I've seen. I'm not sure where you're getting your info from but a quick google is different to your post. I can't post pictures as I'm on my phone.
No.2 I voted Labour last term anyway and I'm going off this manifesto which says Labour will borrow.
As someone very supportive of Brexit, I can only agree with all you say about the importance of the City.
It is a question of we are where we are.
One approach to protect and further enhance the role of the City would have been for the nation to vote Remain
Given that the nation voted Leave then there is the choice of either a) ignoring/betraying that vote and manufacturing a way of remaining, or b) staying true to the referendum outcome and securing the best outcome that can be achieved from the position we are at.
The undermining of the referendum outcome has been a focus for many at Westminster since last June. Some parties/camps have been more obvious and some others have tried to be more subtle in their methods - e.g. the A50 wrecking amendment. I would be adamant that the Labour position of - we will not leave without a deal is an open door/goal for the EU. So if Labour were to win then we will effectively not leave the EU - we will have (can) secure the City's position - but at the cost of all that Leave voters voted for.
So it actually, IMO, boils down to either taking action that essentially undermines the referendum outcome - essentially setting it aside - or seek to establish a negotiating position of 'some strength' and negotiate a departure that includes securing (sufficiently) the role of the City.
Only the Conservative party's (stated) approach can achieve that and it can only be successful if it is progressed in the near/medium term. There is opportunity/risk based on the current operation of the City and the manner in which it is so integral to so much that the EU is dependent on - let's not allow a few years of paralysis to enable the EU the space to mitigate the exposure they would face by playing hard-ball.
I am a committed Leave supporter, but as I say I recognise the truth of what you say re the importance of the City.
My preference would be that we all as a nation (as much as possible) get over it and get on with it - rear-guard skirmishing is not going to help a successful outcome. That is why I fully supported the decision to go for an election. The Brexit negotiating team (not just the figureheads like May) need to have a position to professionally manage the negotiations without debilitating sniping from those that simply cannot get over it.
If that cannot be achieved I would have rather we had voted Remain.
People talk about us 'shooting ourselves' my deciding Brexit - I can understand that but that was the outcome. There is so much bollocks spoken by the likes of Farron about "...we must respect the referendum vote...." - what dissembling!! What he means is that he wants what he sees as 'that stupid fucking decision' reversed - but he cannot come out and say that.
There is also a degree of compromise for tactical reasons in the Labour stance. All this 'we will not leave without a deal' seems to me to be a stance to prevent leaking votes to the LDs - taken at the time shortly after the announcement of an election and thoughts that Labour could leak votes to the LDs as well as Conservatives. It is not at all thought through and that was clear when Corbyn was challenged to provide some substance. People are still just 'skirmishing' and will continue to do so unless there is a sufficient Conservative majority to override those actions.
The associated problem though is that the Genie (A50 notice) is out of the bottle. A bad deal which will be (IMO) the inevitable result from the Labour stance can only lead to a fully UK compromised deal or a withdrawal of the A50 - both entirely on the EU's terms. So loss of vetoes - loss of rebate - our required commitment to further integration etc.
Yes, we will secure the future of the City within such a deal - but many will see it as a betrayal of what they voted for.
SWP's back
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Possibly the most misguided post and graph in the entire thread which is good work at this stage.National debt has risen 53% since the Tories have been in power. If that's the reason you're voting for them, I'm afraid you've been conned. In fact, in the last 70 years, the Tories have always borrowed more than Labour on average.
Debt rose gradually under the last Labour government, but obviously the financial crash was the main cause, when we bailed out the bank. But what you can see in the graph is that the Tories have literally done the square root of fuck all to stop this upward trend in their time in power, and in fact, since they have been elected by themselves, it's actually gone slightly up again.
The Tories have reduced the deficit they inherited by around 75%. The debt can't reduce until that deficit has had been eradicated as has been explained numberous times. Imagine how bad that graph would look with Labour still in charge.
Please visit places like Boston (in Lincolnshire), Crewe in Cheshire to see the impact mass immigration is having on these communities.. it isn't ALL about the CITY !
to some people in the rest of the country, social cohesion is more important and feeling safe.
Prestwich_Blue
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1) We don't know what's being proposed for social care under the Tories as they say one thing one day then something else the next day. They talked about a cap but couldn't say what that cap was and the small print behind the headline indicated that it was a very selective cap.
2) You keep saying the economy is in good shape and I showed you why growth was not being driven by the right fundamentals (eg productivity, which was stagnant). At that point you went very quiet. Yes there is some growth but it's weak and has slumped in Q1 2017 and is the weakest in the EU. So we can comprehensively nail the lie that the economy is in good shape.
3) There is a choice between security and civil liberties but even countries where the latter are severely restricted have security issues. Even Israel suffers terror attacks despite having possibly the most effective security services in the world the humiliating & draconian measures taken against Palestinians in the West Bank which effectively ghettoises them.
There is simply no way that anyone can guarantee that we won't suffer more attacks like the ones we've seen recently. Corbyn voted against those measures (most of which have been implemented despite that) not because he's pro-terrorist but because he's anti the erosion of our civil liberties. Because once those are gone, they're gone.
Magicpole
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You're mixing up deficit with debt.
Two different things.
The deficit has reduced due to cuts so the difference in deficit concerns the gap in what we spend and what we earn.
The debt has risen nearly £900m since 2010 and this is not connected to deficit, so, your misunderstanding if the two makes your post misguided.
We can have zero deficit in GNP but be up to our ears in debt. Which we are.
Len Rum
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I'm afraid you've entered into the Münchausen syndrome by proxy nature of the Tories.
2017. Tories brought about the economic risk of Brexit - only they can sought out the deal necessary to avoid the risk of an economic meltdown ( which is down to them).
Then
2019. Brexit ( and the intransigent EU) has caused this economic crisis - only the Tories can sought out the meltdown.
Then
2027. After the last 10 years of economic hardship only the Tories can restore this country to it's once great status and destroy the enemy within.
And so on ad infinitum as the country races to the bottom.
BlueAnorak
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I agree though we really should have got into Thorium power generation 25 years ago, ideally using the passively safe Pebble-bed reactor technology.
Having just replied to Damocles post - I can fully understand your concerns/angst - and I fully accept their validity.
You, Damocles and I recognise the crucial role of the City. There is actually not much that different I would suggest in the nature of our concerns - just the next steps.
You (I would genuinely respectfully suggest) would prefer that we had voted Leave and would still hope for that to be (essentially) reversed
Damocles (again only a suggestion) might be of a similar view to you or at the very least place the role of the City at a level of importance way above any and all other considerations - even if that leads to acceptance of a lot of main driving forces that led to a referendum outcome of Leave being compromised.
Mine would be to use the negotiating strengths we have (including their dependency on our money - committing future funding and their dependency on the role of the City) now/early to achieve a mutually beneficial negotiated outcome. Both sides will have to make substantial compromises and both sides will need to 'present' things as a 'win' - but this can (IMO) be achieved if we act quickly and resolutely.
This is why in the Brexit thread I have spoke about offering significant funding for 7 years - but I am now straying into the Brexit thread scope so will leave it there.
Cheers mate I thought so when he posted it. It's a public sector graph that isn't it and doesn't highlight overall GDP debt?
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