Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Vic]

There really is a dearth of talent in politics today isn't there.

On the Labour side you have Diane Abbott on the front bench, which frankly beggars belief. John McDonnell with his "fully costed, but nevertheless financially incompetent" budget. Corbyn is starting to look half normal. Ish.

And on the Tory side, it's as bad if not worse.

Where are the Heseltines, the Portillos, the Blairs, Browns. Hell even the somewhat odious Charles Kennedy was a competent if not pissed politician. I thought Nick Clegg was pretty good, and now he's not even an MP.

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

 

[cibaman]

I agree - I view it as they view it as something that will happen as a result of everything else tied to it, and then needing something to replace it.
Without UKIP's immigration-driven grandstanding, the economic concerns are more important now.

the crossparty, UK-wide involvement that is now required is a good thing too.

Hopefully May has deleted "The Winner Takes it All" from her playlist and replaced it with "Lets Work Together"

 

[Chris in London]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

I have no problem with the Heseltines and Ken Clarkes of this world. They were part of the government that presided over Britain's shift from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. They recognise what the departure of the UK from the single market will do to the nation's economy as a result of the uK being no longer able to provide financial services to the other EU states. What gets me is a dickhead like a David Davis who was an unalloyed Thatcherite and stood by cheering as our national economy became more and more dependent on the City of London but now seems hell bent on preventing the City from accessing its most lucrative market.

 

[Ban-jani]

I slept on this. I can't see anyone who hates Britain. Some may not see the point of policies that would seem to benefit Britain at the expense of the rest of the world (we've given up visions of empire) but the real wreckers are those who happily say they'd put up with a worse economy so long as we didn't have to be in the EU.

He does, he's constantly wanting the UK to fail because of Brexit and be he seemed disappointed when there wasn't a recession following the vote.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

Good. He's not wrong. Patients recover from cancer of course and sometimes go to lead happy lives, but no-one chooses it. Nor gets over it without significant hardship first.

 

[stonerblue]

Good. He's not wrong. Patients recover from cancer of course and sometimes go to lead happy lives, but no-one chooses it. Nor gets over it without significant hardship first.

50% recover for ten years or more. 50% die.

 

[Chippy_boy]

the real wreckers are those who happily say they'd put up with a worse economy so long as we didn't have to be in the EU.

And there's PLENTY of those around.

I want to blame my politicians who I voted for take the blame and the credit for whatever ails the country I want to hold them directly and personally responsible. I can quote examples of useless edicts from the EU like the crap lightbulbs and the prevention of not recycling teabags but these are easily circumvented household by household.

Here is a small list I have picked a paper that is a bit left leaning to try to be impartial.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eu-laws-we-will-miss-in-britain-a7103031.html

Now don't get me wrong I am not suggesting for one minute that our own governments don't make laws that are absurd or unworkable but at least they are made by a government I elected and have a voice to remove. The looming notion of an EU military and Merkel banging the drum for even more political and legal integration which would effectively ensure our position as a servile state which will in effect be at the whim of whatever barmpot holds control in Brussels.

Immigration and the free movement of any EU citizen to this country undercuts pay conditions and rights of British citizens even Corbyn has reflected on that publicly and has stated that these conditions need reworking, it all depends on how the EU react to proposals but that doesn't look good because all Cameron got was a smacked backside, the inference is that if you're in it you're in it lock stock and barrel.

As for nurses? We need to train more, improve working conditions and actually employ staff for the NHS strategically as and when we need them IF we don't have the qualified staff we have trained ourselves. The NHS needs work we know that and it's our government that needs to stop blowing smoke and deliver on realistic targets for British trained NHS staff at all levels.

Lastly I am a patriot but a weird combination of being labelled a "Little Englander" but with a real social conscience, I would gladly lose some of my not very affluent lifestyle to improve the lot of other British people but at the same time love my flag (I know it's socially considered to be akin to being a Nazi by some) this doesn't make me a scoundrel as the famous quote suggests, it makes me a product of my time of birth and environment mixed with a cultural need of belonging.

In short I don't trust the EU bureaucrats and I don't trust our career politicians who themselves have feathered their own nests for too long, but at least I have the veneer of democracy that affords me a skewed attempt at removing villains when I see them from our democratic process. I'm English-British-UK and strange as it seems I want to keep that and work through any problems that arise as and when they pop up.

Sorry I missed your reply and we've moved on a bit. But in essense what you appear to be saying is that in your opinion, the pitiful amount of influence you have on the legislation acted upon you by a British government, is nevertheless greater than the even smaller influence you have on influencing EU legislation.

And therefore the uncertainty, cost, upheaval, risk of loss of jobs (imo cast iron certainty, not risk) and generally depression of our living standards is worth it, in return for that. That seems to be about the size of it?

I don't remember the last time I voted for anything and it making an atom of difference. And that goes back as far as voting for the school prefect. In terms of voting for Governments? Of course my vote makes the square root of bugger all difference. It doesn't even influence what MP I get.

So this idea that you get more say in what you want, for me, is a bit like saying I'll play the National Lottery instead of Euro millions because I am more likely to win the National Lottery. i.e. a correct assumption, but in reality, irrelevant.

The pain of leaving is simply not worth the hassle imo. Of course I respect your views, however.

 

[Chippy_boy]

50% recover for ten years or more. 50% die.

Indeed. I've said in many posts we may be better off in 10 years time, but equally it is entirely possible that we will NEVER be as well off post Brexit as we would have been had we not left. For the former to happen, personally I think we'd need to swing to the right in terms of our politics, with lower taxes, less regulation and less interference in business. It is those sort of policies that lead to increased growth and wealth creation. (Notwithstanding peoples' unhappiness with how that wealth may be distributed).

And right now, we seem to be heading - with either government - in the opposite direction.

Let's wind the clock forward and imagine we've left the EU and the customs union. A very likely outcome. Now let's imagine an American or Japanese company wanting to set up in Europe. What *possible* incentive would they have for decided to funnel their investment into the UK?

We have lower productivity than any other major economy (apart from Japan). Under Corbyn, we'd have corporation tax higher than the EU average and much higher than in some alternative countries. We'd have higher labour costs, even higher again under Corbyn. And at best case, this investor would face lots of administrative and logistical overheads, exporting to the other 27 countries. At worst, a tax penalty on top, making their goods less competitive.

In short, they would be MAD to come to the UK. And yet this is the sort of thing that we are expecting to *flourish* if we leave the EU. Absolutely bonkers.

I am looking for a job at the moment, and working in IT, lots of employers are American businesses of all sizes, from vast corporations to small start ups. It is striking how many of the startups are basing their first EU operations, not in the UK but elsewhere in Europe. Even the big businesses like Oracle and SAP have moved much of their administrative and support functions to places like Ireland and Hungary. (HR, support, inside sales, procurement - all moved out.)

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

He's right. It's the biggest political shambles since WWII! We have a political system, electorate excluded, that would have been massively in favour of remaining. They are now charged with extricating us from a situation that would make exiting a complicated labyrinth a piece of piss! And the people we are negotiating with have little memories for the millions of Allied soldiers buried in their countries whose sacrifice allowed the ungrateful bastards to set up their Common Market in the first place! I think those in the Government should have little Commonwealth replicas of headstones pinned to their lapels at each meeting they have.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

He's right. It's the biggest political shambles since WWII! We have a political system, electorate excluded, that would have been massively in favour of remaining. They are now charged with extricating us from a situation that would make exiting a complicated labyrinth a piece of piss! And the people we are negotiating with have little memories for the millions of Allied soldiers buried in their countries whose sacrifice allowed the ungrateful bastards to set up their Common Market in the first place! I think those in the Government should have little Commonwealth replicas of headstones pinned to their lapels at each meeting they have.

he isn't right at all, hes a doom and gloom merchant who has done nothing but moan the entire time. we haven't even left yet or started negotiating........ electorate excluded ? ok so lets just ignore the people then, that would be a brilliant idea.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

he isn't right at all, hes a doom and gloom merchant who has done nothing but moan the entire time. we haven't even left yet or started negotiating........ electorate excluded ? ok so lets just ignore the people then, that would be a brilliant idea.

He's not alone in being one of ex-Westminster doom and gloom merchants. But the most optimistic happy-clappers have toned it down a bit since the election. The possible negotiations were better placed before the election. Now, Johnny Foreigner is gonna screw us even further and our 'negotiators' are not in a position to develop and agree a mutually beneficial deal. It's got 'Billy-no-win' written all over it. I hope I'm totally wrong - won't be the first time! - but the guy from Aston Martin on telly last night was suggesting that the whole thing is floundering around in limbo!

You can't reveal what deal you are aiming for - something that too many have been clamouring for - until you talk with t'other side and see what brass-necked demands they are gonna make. It'll all come out in the wash, one way or the other, but it is a shambles!

 

[Damocles]

I honestly have always thought it should have been a cross-Party commission negotiating the exit personally, but presumed there were reasons that I couldn't work out about why that would be stupid. Seems the idea is picking up steam.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

It's only a shambles because politicians aren't doing what the electorate voted for. The term shambles is being bandied about like the term hard brexit entering into the electorates day to day speak with help from the media. I have just watched an hour of SKY news who paraded one remainer after the other, looks to me like the real undermining has begun in earnest.
The DUP are sworn to a hard brexit (Have to use the term it's there now isn't it?) so at the very least the position of May is strengthened on that count. We have the SNP on one side of the country instigating for a split, we have Irish nationalists on the other wanting a separation of the UK whilst both speaking out of the sides of their mouths about unity.

So we will leave the EU as long as we

Stay in the single market
Stay in the customs union
Keep the free movement of people but lie to the electorate that they will "Look at it".
In effect not leave the EU at all, and I can't see that happening,common sense tells me that even if brexit achieves one of those aims the EU will ensure that what remainers call a hard brexit will happen because I for one don't believe the EU will allow any movement on those EU conditions.

 

[Damocles]

It's only a shambles because politicians aren't doing what the electorate voted for. The term shambles is being bandied about like the term hard brexit entering into the electorates day to day speak with help from the media. I have just watched an hour of SKY news who paraded one remainer after the other, looks to me like the real undermining has begun in earnest.
The DUP are sworn to a hard brexit (Have to use the term it's there now isn't it?) so at the very least the position of May is strengthened on that count. We have the SNP on one side of the country instigating for a split, we have Irish nationalists on the other wanting a separation of the UK whilst both speaking out of the sides of their mouths about unity.

So we will leave the EU as long as we

Stay in the single market
Stay in the customs union
Keep the free movement of people but lie to the electorate that they will "Look at it".
In effect not leave the EU at all, and I can't see that happening,common sense tells me that even if brexit achieves one of those aims the EU will ensure that what remainers call a hard brexit will happen because I for one don't believe the EU will allow any movement on those EU conditions.

It's always been an opinion of mine that people didn't vote to leave the EU which the majority couldn't give a toss about either way, but that the majority voted for the end of freedom of movement. If the Brexit team come back without that we could have a riot on our hands.

It's generally a daft policy of course, ending freedom of movement, but a perfectly understandable one.

The situation is similar to having a spider attacking your face. Others may say that really the problem is the guy throwing spiders at you, but for most people the most immediate, visible and pressing problem is getting the fucking spider off of them. Immigration into working class areas might not be the ultimate problem but it's the most immediate, pressing and visible one that is hurting these communities in terms of competition of labour.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

It's always been an opinion of mine that people didn't vote to leave the EU which the majority couldn't give a toss about either way, but that the majority voted for the end of freedom of movement. If the Brexit team come back without that we could have a riot on our hands.

You're right mate, Corbyn touched on that himself citing it damaged working conditions and enabled corporate greed. If free movement of people is stopped and the govt dig their heels in do you think the EU will say no to access to the single market?

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

It's only a shambles because politicians aren't doing what the electorate voted for.

Well, I'll be a cow's uncle! The skunks sitting in the Members' Bar, or one of them, or several of them, aren't doing what the election charged them to do! The only time politicians listen to the electorate is in the few weeks prior to an election. After they are elected they revert to self-serving mode again.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Well, I'll be a cow's uncle! The skunks sitting in the Members' Bar, or one of them, or several of them, aren't doing what the election charged them to do! The only time politicians listen to the electorate is in the few weeks prior to an election. After they are elected they revert to self-serving mode again.

Politicians are like that, it's a circle that keeps repeating itself doesn't it?

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

It's only a shambles because politicians aren't doing what the electorate voted for. The term shambles is being bandied about like the term hard brexit entering into the electorates day to day speak with help from the media. I have just watched an hour of SKY news who paraded one remainer after the other, looks to me like the real undermining has begun in earnest.
The DUP are sworn to a hard brexit (Have to use the term it's there now isn't it?) so at the very least the position of May is strengthened on that count. We have the SNP on one side of the country instigating for a split, we have Irish nationalists on the other wanting a separation of the UK whilst both speaking out of the sides of their mouths about unity.

So we will leave the EU as long as we

Stay in the single market
Stay in the customs union
Keep the free movement of people but lie to the electorate that they will "Look at it".
In effect not leave the EU at all, and I can't see that happening,common sense tells me that even if brexit achieves one of those aims the EU will ensure that what remainers call a hard brexit will happen because I for one don't believe the EU will allow any movement on those EU conditions.

I'm getting sick of it as well, they literally just have remainers on now it seems. all morning I've been watching the news and seeing one after another saying we need a soft brexit. In this election brexit was barely even talked about. they are jumping on the bandwagon and trying to force through there opinion and agenda. as you say we may as well just stay in the eu. a ' soft brexit would mean FOM,unable to make trade deals., we have to leave the single market. labour and the conservatives both said they are committed to leaving the single market, so they've just lied to everyone if we dont.

if we dont really leave i think it will have been the biggest stitch up ever. and millions of people will be pissed off, including myself. many of the working class people will feel completely ignored, especially on immigration

 

[geoff clipp]

It's only a shambles because politicians aren't doing what the electorate voted for. The term shambles is being bandied about like the term hard brexit entering into the electorates day to day speak with help from the media. I have just watched an hour of SKY news who paraded one remainer after the other, looks to me like the real undermining has begun in earnest.
The DUP are sworn to a hard brexit (Have to use the term it's there now isn't it?) so at the very least the position of May is strengthened on that count. We have the SNP on one side of the country instigating for a split, we have Irish nationalists on the other wanting a separation of the UK whilst both speaking out of the sides of their mouths about unity.

So we will leave the EU as long as we

Stay in the single market
Stay in the customs union
Keep the free movement of people but lie to the electorate that they will "Look at it".
In effect not leave the EU at all, and I can't see that happening,common sense tells me that even if brexit achieves one of those aims the EU will ensure that what remainers call a hard brexit will happen because I for one don't believe the EU will allow any movement on those EU conditions.

Not sure why you believe the DUP are sworn to a hard Brexit. It's the opposite. They're sworn to a soft border with the Republic of Ireland. They are also completely opposed to being granted any special status in the UK. The only way they can achieve the soft border without having some kind of special status is by staying in the customs union at the very least and potentially the single market too. TBH, their position on Brexit makes very little sense to me as they seem to still want the soft border and all of the subsidies that come with EU membership (no doubt we will be picking up the tab for that now as part of any agreement) but not be in it.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Not sure why you believe the DUP are sworn to a hard Brexit. It's the opposite. They're sworn to a soft border with the Republic of Ireland. They are also completely opposed to being granted any special status in the UK. The only way they can achieve the soft border without having some kind of special status is by staying in the customs union at the very least and potentially the single market too. TBH, their position on Brexit makes very little sense to me as they seem to still want the soft border and all of the subsidies that come with EU membership (no doubt we will be picking up the tab for that now as part of any agreement) but not be in it.

Depending on which paper you read the story changes but the DUP were pro brexit and Theresa May can ill afford to ignore the referendum and deliver a no leave which is anything other than a hard brexit. What people mean by a soft brexit is a non brexit which means we remain in the EU, that isn't going to happen.
As Damocles said downstream if the free movement of people and immigration as a whole isn't addressed it will be political suicide for whatever party botches that up.

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...exit-donation-spent-outside-northern-ireland/

Politicians may connive and change opinion on a whim but make no mistake the EU will not shift on any free movement negotiations and they themselves will in effect force a so called hard brexit.