Veganism

SWP's back said:
I don't have to defend anything, I'll continue doing what my ancestors have been doing for the last 250 millennia and you can continue to gripe and drown in your own sanctiomy.

It's not fallacious to appeal to nature in the slightest. You only say it is as it completely shoots down why little argument you can come up with. It's not fallacious to state we have evolved to be omnivores either. In fact, I'm not sure you understand what a fallacy is which is surprising given then fact you appear to be a phallus. (There's some ad hominem for you).

We are the apex predator. We are top of the food chain. We can eat what we want and I'll spend as much time handwringing over it as a lion would.

The difference between us joe is that you can do what you want, be as vegan as you want and guess what, I won't give two hoots. I won't try and change your mind but you'll have to suffer the fact that I and the vast majority of others will continue to eat meat no matter how many toys you throw out of the pram. I actually enjoy how upset that makes you.
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You are a one you! Hope we get to meet one day.
 
SWP's back said:
The difference between us joe is that you can do what you want, be as vegan as you want and guess what, I won't give two hoots. I won't try and change your mind but you'll have to suffer the fact that I and the vast majority of others will continue to eat meat no matter how many toys you throw out of the pram. I actually enjoy how upset that makes you.
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I think this is where most people stand on any issue. I find it one of the most annoying things that people want me to do what they consider to be the ONLY way forward. I am quite happy for them to pursue that track, just as long as they don't mither me to follow them.
 
Some utter shite posted on here, people saying you can't get protein or will be malnourished if you don't eat meat don't know what they are talking about. There are a growing number of athletes moving to a plant based diet due to the benefits of not consuming animal products. There are vegan endurance athletes, power lifters & MMA fighters, they don't look malnourished to me. Messi & Sergio Aguero has apparently moved to vegetarian diets in an effort to cut down on injuries & boost recovery time. I couldn't care less if people want to eat meat but stop posting the bullshit about it not being possible to be healthy without meat.

There are plenty of unhealthy vegans, they probably eat vegan processed foods. You could just eat chips every meal and class yourself as a vegan but you wouldn't have a very healthy diet. The same as there are plenty of unhealthy omnivores.
 
Juan King said:
Some utter shite posted on here, people saying you can't get protein or will be malnourished if you don't eat meat don't know what they are talking about. There are a growing number of athletes moving to a plant based diet due to the benefits of not consuming animal products. There are vegan endurance athletes, power lifters & MMA fighters, they don't look malnourished to me. Messi & Sergio Aguero has apparently moved to vegetarian diets in an effort to cut down on injuries & boost recovery time. I couldn't care less if people want to eat meat but stop posting the bullshit about it not being possible to be healthy without meat.

There are plenty of unhealthy vegans, they probably eat vegan processed foods. You could just eat chips every meal and class yourself as a vegan but you wouldn't have a very healthy diet. The same as there are plenty of unhealthy omnivores.
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Is it a fact that vegans need to to take a supplement for a certain vitamin that's only found in meat?
Or is that not true, I believe it's one of the B vitamins.
 
How is a lettuce not alive but a cow is?
There is nothing you can eat that hasn't, at one point, been "alive". Something "alive" absorbs energy from the sun or volcanic vent, something else "alive" eats it and takes the energy, all the way down to microbial level.

So where do we draw the line over what is cruel to eat? Things that have limbs or look cute? Things that are more closely related to us? Trees DNA is over 50% identical to our own, so we're beginning to struggle for anything for tea tonight that isn't eukaryotes .

If you want to be veggie or vegan, fine, that is your choice, but don't come down all high and mighty on meat eaters like you are doing something for the good of life on Earth, you are doing it for your benefit and yours alone.
 
casualdeyna said:
How is a lettuce not alive but a cow is?
There is nothing you can eat that hasn't, at one point, been "alive". Something "alive" absorbs energy from the sun or volcanic vent, something else "alive" eats it and takes the energy, all the way down to microbial level.

So where do we draw the line over what is cruel to eat? Things that have limbs or look cute? Things that are more closely related to us? Trees DNA is over 50% identical to our own, so we're beginning to struggle for anything for tea tonight that isn't eukaryotes .

If you want to be veggie or vegan, fine, that is your choice, but don't come down all high and mighty on meat eaters like you are doing something for the good of life on Earth, you are doing it for your benefit and yours alone.
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Sentience. https://www.veganism.com/sentience-and-moral-consideration/
 
drthingy said:
I cut out meat, Sometimes eat fish and very occasionally dairy products.

I started for the health benefits and honestly have felt really good since switching (More energy and have also had less injuries when doing intensive training). Now this could all be down to just taking more time and thinking about what I am eating rather than the lack of meat but there is more evidence that red meat especially processed is carcinogenic (see world health organisation publication). There appear to be environmental benefits as well (although that is counter argued with the problems with soya farming).

I think the discussions about cruelty to animals is too emotive, it easily gets out of hand when you can see the passion in both sides of the argument, it also gets very difficult not to be a hypocrite as where do you draw a line in avoiding animal products completely ie do you wear a leather belt etc.

anyway

It is a lifestyle choice and I like it!
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I think people choose to not eat meat for several different reasons, I chose to try cutting out meat altogether for the health benefits and similar to yourself have found I feel much better and have decided to stick with it.

Ancient Citizen said:
Is it a fact that vegans need to to take a supplement for a certain vitamin that's only found in meat?
Or is that not true, I believe it's one of the B vitamins.
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B12 is what you are talking about, which comes from bacteria. You can get it in fortified products or take a tablet. That is the only thing you probably wouldn't get enough of from a purely plant based diet.
 
B12 is what you are talking about, which comes from bacteria. You can get it in fortified products or take a tablet. That is the only thing you probably wouldn't get enough of from a purely plant based diet.[/QUOTE]

Which is why such a diet is not a natural one for humans. It proves that meat is an absolute necessity in our diets,
and why nature has fashioned us to consume it.
So best we keep on chicken throttling and cow pole axing, deficiency is not good.
 
casualdeyna said:
How is a lettuce not alive but a cow is?
There is nothing you can eat that hasn't, at one point, been "alive". Something "alive" absorbs energy from the sun or volcanic vent, something else "alive" eats it and takes the energy, all the way down to microbial level.

So where do we draw the line over what is cruel to eat? Things that have limbs or look cute? Things that are more closely related to us? Trees DNA is over 50% identical to our own, so we're beginning to struggle for anything for tea tonight that isn't eukaryotes .
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It's pretty simple really. It just comes down to capacity for suffering. Plants have no nervous system or brain and are therefore incapable of suffering. Different animals have different degrees of these. I believe mussels and clams have a nervous system but not a brain, so it's therefore pretty dubious that they are capable of suffering, but it's pretty obvious that a pig or dog is capable of suffering. Pretty much most meat eaters in the developed world recognise this as a factor, which is why they're generally in favour of making conditions nicer for animals before they die where possible, and are in favour of a quick slaughter when they are finally killed. If they genuinely didn't give a shit about animal suffering, then they would have no problem with the Chinese practice of skinning dogs alive before killing them because they believe it makes the meat taste better. Once you accept that animal suffering is something that we should be concerned about, I don't see why accepting that different people are willing to take this to its logical conclusion would be particularly confusing. And that's why most vegans would presumably have no problem with you eating road kill, for example, because the suffering involved was incidental to your meal rather than the reason for it.
 
MellowJoe said:
Fine, you don't like the analogy, but all you have done so far is use shit fallacies. Appeal to nature, appeal to tradition, and ad hominems. I'm deranged, a fruit and sanctimonious.. you just can't help yourself defend why the systematic breeding, abusing, and killing of highly sentient animals is a good thing, or morally irrelevant then I suggest you go back to playing with your dolls.
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bacon butties ?
 
I'm With Stupid said:
It's pretty simple really. It just comes down to capacity for suffering. Plants have no nervous system or brain and are therefore incapable of suffering. Different animals have different degrees of these. I believe mussels and clams have a nervous system but not a brain, so it's therefore pretty dubious that they are capable of suffering, but it's pretty obvious that a pig or dog is capable of suffering. Pretty much most meat eaters in the developed world recognise this as a factor, which is why they're generally in favour of making conditions nicer for animals before they die where possible, and are in favour of a quick slaughter when they are finally killed. If they genuinely didn't give a shit about animal suffering, then they would have no problem with the Chinese practice of skinning dogs alive before killing them because they believe it makes the meat taste better. Once you accept that animal suffering is something that we should be concerned about, I don't see why accepting that different people are willing to take this to its logical conclusion would be particularly confusing. And that's why most vegans would presumably have no problem with you eating road kill, for example, because the suffering involved was incidental to your meal rather than the reason for it.
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Good post. I think the people hardest to get to are the couldn't-give-a-shitists - the 'No, no, God said it's ok, we've done for ages, we're the only animals that really matter..e tc' that's why invitro meat is so important. Once they can create gourmet steaks that taste just as good, then the farmed animals plight will near it's end. Mankind have disgraced their intelligence long enough, but it's science to the rescue!
 
MellowJoe said:
Good post. I think the people hardest to get to are the couldn't-give-a-shitists - the 'No, no, God said it's ok, we've done for ages, we're the only animals that really matter..e tc' that's why invitro meat is so important. Once they can create gourmet steaks that taste just as good, then the farmed animals plight will near it's end. Mankind have disgraced their intelligence long enough, but it's science to the rescue!
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Farm animals plight won't be ended they will be driven to extinction.
 
smudgedj said:
Farm animals plight won't be ended they will be driven to extinction.
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Same difference. But that might not actually be the case. We may come the conclusion that it'd be a good idea to keep some in the game, with the numbers controlled through immunocontraception.
 
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