Alternative striker options

ChicagoBlue said:
Fingers and toes crossed. Saw a few good runs, but struggling to see where he fits in at pivot. Not his game.
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If we play a back four I would tend to agree, but if we are playing three at the back then the middle centre back can play more of the defensive pivot role, giving Gundogan mre freedom to go and dictate play further forward. Expecting Toure and Fernandinho to be replaced next summer by a more traditional Pep pivot.
 
blueparrot said:
If we play a back four I would tend to agree, but if we are playing three at the back then the middle centre back can play more of the defensive pivot role, giving Gundogan mre freedom to go and dictate play further forward. Expecting Toure and Fernandinho to be replaced next summer by a more traditional Pep pivot.
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I think when the centre backs have the ball, the wing backs should invert and position themselves either side of Dinho. Centre backs have 3 options. Good teams will just stop Dinho from pivoting. They will happily let Walker and Danilio have the ball outwide on the half way line because they can't cause them any problems. This happened for the first 45 yesterday and resulted in us playing fairly tentative long passes which weren't very accurate.

With extra pivots, we should be able to get KDB, Silva, Jesus and Kun more involved. We can create the width once we have reached the final third of the pitch. Having Walker and Danilio stood still on the half way line or on the touchline 35 yards out from goal won't be effective. Totally negates their strengths and is fairly easy to play against if you as organised.
 
ono said:
I think when the centre backs have the ball, the wing backs should invert and position themselves either side of Dinho. Centre backs have 3 options. Good teams will just stop Dinho from pivoting. They will happily let Walker and Danilio have the ball outwide on the half way line because they can't cause them any problems. This happened for the first 45 yesterday and resulted in us playing fairly tentative long passes which weren't very accurate.

With extra pivots, we should be able to get KDB, Silva, Jesus and Kun more involved. We can create the width once we have reached the final third of the pitch. Having Walker and Danilio stood still on the half way line or on the touchline 35 yards out from goal won't be effective. Totally negates their strengths and is fairly easy to play against if you as organised.
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Don't think you understand how it works tbh.

If you play 3 at the back with wingbacks and you let them come inside the opposing team doesn't have to do anything to stop you because you have zero width. They can just stand with their entire team in the middle doing nothing because you don't have any options to pass to you'd be playing 3-3-2-2 which is terrible. There is a reason why they are called 'wingbacks' so that they occupy the position on the wing to stretch the opposition to make it easier to get to the final third. If you put pressure on the CBs and midfielders they will always be free.

ono said:
We can create the width once we have reached the final third of the pitch.
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You won't get there without width, that's the whole point of having width, to get to the final third.
Because with what you are saying and teams park a bus it's 8 vs 4 with no options on the wings for KdB or Silva it's impossible and that's why Pep would absolutely never play 3 at the back with inverted wingbacks because no offence but that's a stupid idea.
 
I'd actually really like Llorente if it means Bony is going in the other direction. Would be a significant upgrade, but don't know if he would be okay with mostly being a sub.
 
Ruzzles said:
Don't think you understand how it works tbh.

If you play 3 at the back with wingbacks and you let them come inside the opposing team doesn't have to do anything to stop you because you have zero width. They can just stand with their entire team in the middle doing nothing because you don't have any options to pass to you'd be playing 3-3-2-2 which is terrible. There is a reason why they are called 'wingbacks' so that they occupy the position on the wing to stretch the opposition to make it easier to get to the final third. If you put pressure on the CBs and midfielders they will always be free.



You won't get there without width, that's the whole point of having width, to get to the final third.
Because with what you are saying and teams park a bus it's 8 vs 4 with no options on the wings for KdB or Silva it's impossible and that's why Pep would absolutely never play 3 at the back with inverted wingbacks because no offence but that's a stupid idea.
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How arrogant. Of course I know how it works.

Pep has played this way at Bayern many times. Two banks of 3 when on the ball, with the width being created by attacking players and not defenders. If you are suggesting it doesn't work, you're wrong as he's had good success with it at Bayern.
 
ono said:
How arrogant. Of course I know how it works.

Pep has played this way at Bayern many times. Two banks of 3 when on the ball, with the width being created by attacking players and not defenders. If you are suggesting it doesn't work, you're wrong as he's had good success with it at Bayern.
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When he used inverted fullbacks at Bayern he played a 433 mate.

Playing a 352 only to use the wingbacks inside is counterproductive why have them in the first place if you aren't gonna use them in the positions they are supposed to be. It's stupid. They're called WINGbacks for a reason.

If he does what you say then Aguero and Jesus would be wide with KdB in between the channels then you are missing a striker because you moved them out wide to compensate for putting your wingbacks without reason inside and removing all width.
 
Ono & Ruzzles,

The 3 in th back is designed to provide wide cover for the flying wing backs. When you try to stifle the outlet (Dinho yesterday) the space has already been created for Silva and KDB (in yesterday's team) to come back in the channel and pick it up. We did it numerous times when they pushed up on Dinho.

When one of the back three plays into Dinho and he is pressured, he simply plays the ball back where it came from or to one of the wider centre backs. When Silva or KDB sees this happen, they come short for the ball to relieve the pressure. If their midfielder comes with them, then the ball goes to the other side OR you spray the ball over to the flying wing back.

Any attempt to suppress all of that movement creates spaces and holes all over the field. The reason for the sideline hugging fullbacks is to create the space that is needed for all this to work. And, if all else fails, you send the ball up to the retreating centre forward (which Sergio is improving at in leaps and bounds) and then he lays it off to the now advancing Silva or KDB, or sprays it wide. He didn't manage to pull off the dink around the corner too often yesterday, but it was there to see if you watched how it developed.

Pep's entire game plan is exploitation of the space left by the "non-normal" movement of players. In the 3/5/2, this means stretching their midfield as widely across the field in the oppositions half to provide the creative midfielders and two forwards the room they need to play and create...be in the ball into the slot, or with one dropping back into the supporting role to pick up the payoff and/or make the second run. Within that system is the constant rotation of go, and come back, and go again. This is what makes marking our players so difficult and why teams are forced to collapse in on themselves...hence the need to have the highest quality wing backs who can play that killer ball into the box.

The problem, of course, is that if the build up is slow and plodding (half a dozen short passes across the back three before it goes forward), then we allow the opposition to collapse into their shape and nullify the prime objective of exploiting the space they have left as they moved forward. This highlights the need for speed on the break, which we most definitely possess, but which we don't always exploit to the fullest. Unfortunately, it might require almost superhuman athletic abilities to pull this off in the high press defensive game we are playing, because the level of speed/exertion needed over such a long period, which is why a phalanx of ready replacements is needed on the bench. Thankfully, we have that in spades in almost every position now.

I have to agree with Ruzzles, though, that inverted fullbacks was Pep's method of solidifying the midfield while letting the midfielders and wingers (Sterling & Sane) provide the width last season, with Silva and KDB playing the withdrawn second striker role with Yaya on the pivot. These are two vastly different ways of playing. One is 5/3/2 & 3/5/2-3/3/4, the other is 4/3/3 & 2/2/3/3, on defence and attack, respectively. As you can see, the first system, with 3 at the back, gives us greater flexibility IF (and only IF) we have the flying full backs who are able to get all the way back and forwards. Anoer thing the high press in midfield does is allow that the time to happen when we lose the ball, with a covering centre back on whichever side we are being counter attacked.

The future is exciting. The future is Blue!
 
kun said:
I'd have him ahead of Sanchez or Mbappé tbh. Don't see it though, Juve have already lost Bonucci and Alves and his value is sky high. We'd be looking at Neymar numbers tbh.
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We would but dybala is more established than mbappe if the numbers would be the same. Just watching Juve and the have an age issue at present which at some point will need to be sorted. They have been out played tonight by Lazio

Dybala just scored a freekick
 
BlueMoonz1977 said:
We would but dybala is more established than mbappe if the numbers would be the same. Just watching Juve and the have an age issue at present which at some point will need to be sorted. They have been out played tonight by Lazio

Dybala just scored a freekick
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Oh sh*t... That puts another €70 million on his transfer fee :-(
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Ono & Ruzzles,

The 3 in th back is designed to provide wide cover for the flying wing backs. When you try to stifle the outlet (Dinho yesterday) the space has already been created for Silva and KDB (in yesterday's team) to come back in the channel and pick it up. We did it numerous times when they pushed up on Dinho.

When one of the back three plays into Dinho and he is pressured, he simply plays the ball back where it came from or to one of the wider centre backs. When Silva or KDB sees this happen, they come short for the ball to relieve the pressure. If their midfielder comes with them, then the ball goes to the other side OR you spray the ball over to the flying wing back.

Any attempt to suppress all of that movement creates spaces and holes all over the field. The reason for the sideline hugging fullbacks is to create the space that is needed for all this to work. And, if all else fails, you send the ball up to the retreating centre forward (which Sergio is improving at in leaps and bounds) and then he lays it off to the now advancing Silva or KDB, or sprays it wide. He didn't manage to pull off the dink around the corner too often yesterday, but it was there to see if you watched how it developed.

Pep's entire game plan is exploitation of the space left by the "non-normal" movement of players. In the 3/5/2, this means stretching their midfield as widely across the field in the oppositions half to provide the creative midfielders and two forwards the room they need to play and create...be in the ball into the slot, or with one dropping back into the supporting role to pick up the payoff and/or make the second run. Within that system is the constant rotation of go, and come back, and go again. This is what makes marking our players so difficult and why teams are forced to collapse in on themselves...hence the need to have the highest quality wing backs who can play that killer ball into the box.

The problem, of course, is that if the build up is slow and plodding (half a dozen short passes across the back three before it goes forward), then we allow the opposition to collapse into their shape and nullify the prime objective of exploiting the space they have left as they moved forward. This highlights the need for speed on the break, which we most definitely possess, but which we don't always exploit to the fullest. Unfortunately, it might require almost superhuman athletic abilities to pull this off in the high press defensive game we are playing, because the level of speed/exertion needed over such a long period, which is why a phalanx of ready replacements is needed on the bench. Thankfully, we have that in spades in almost every position now.

I have to agree with Ruzzles, though, that inverted fullbacks was Pep's method of solidifying the midfield while letting the midfielders and wingers (Sterling & Sane) provide the width last season, with Silva and KDB playing the withdrawn second striker role with Yaya on the pivot. These are two vastly different ways of playing. One is 5/3/2 & 3/5/2-3/3/4, the other is 4/3/3 & 2/2/3/3, on defence and attack, respectively. As you can see, the first system, with 3 at the back, gives us greater flexibility IF (and only IF) we have the flying full backs who are able to get all the way back and forwards. Anoer thing the high press in midfield does is allow that the time to happen when we lose the ball, with a covering centre back on whichever side we are being counter attacked.

The future is exciting. The future is Blue!
Click to expand...

The point about the slow build up is something we're guilty of doing too much of in some games & we make life hard for ourselves.
 
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