blue cigar
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I want brexit to happen and i am as left wing as you will find. Sorry to piss on your arrogant tory chips but maybe a bit of realism instead of perception will do you good.
Carry on.
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Carry on.
The perfect fumble
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Her negotiating position was weakened June 8th by the electorate returning the wrong result, according to William Hague.
I'm sure the remainers will be able to justify £50bn for whatever, come to think of it, assuming we do pay £50bn, what are we paying £50bn for?
Seems the only way to square the circle in Ireland is to give Northern Ireland special status. The DUP won't like that, it's the slippery slope to a united Ireland. We might be heading for another election quite soon and then the unthinkable.....
The perfect fumble
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You're right, there's a strong tradition of EU opposition on the left, its one size fits all capitalist model. It runs against the grain to champion the rights of working people against the landed gentry, the industrialist class and now the rentier class neo-liberals only to hand it to corporatist Eurocrats.
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stonerblue
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or the vonkey and some bloke in central America love-in..
Fuck me - you are easily impressed!!
So let's just assess this profound contribution of fumble's that has so impressed you.
1. The substance is a cut a paste from his beloved Guardian - with all the bias and blinkered assessment that paper is renown for
2. Then there is fumble's own sage analysis and commentary:
"How could I not! All those BMW execs fretting about their mountain of unsold cars, that Prosecco lake undrunk.
Jesus Christ! Those Continental Johnnies are in deep shit."
You may see that as being statesman like - for me it is wholly facile bollocks that demonstrate the 'depth' of his capability to debate.
Anyway - my comments were mainly on MB's accurate assessment of the thread - so enough of quoting lightweights
Metal Biker
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So what exactly are you trying to achieve yourself? Are you trying to "convince" those that voted to acknowledge the horrendous mistake you believe that they have made? To what extent and purpose? Is it so that you can go satisfy your own sense of virtue announcing to all and sundry that you were "on the right side of history".
Here is is a wake up call to your inflated egos in regards to the topic on conversation this thread is meant to encourage; nobody cares about how you voted but you. Look back on your own post; read it again and ask yourself "How has this post informed people who want to know about the Brexit negotiations with new information that could be deemed useful?" It's nothing more than your own opinion and we know that already, there's absolutely no need to post it again. This is the point I was making.
This "Article 50/Brexit" thread is anything but a place to discuss the negotiations from a neutral perspective. It's a refuge for people to moan, denigrate and lambast the decision, which is fine, anyone should be allowed to do that, but at the very least start another thread on it rather than polluting the current discussion with insults about others whose opinions you disagree with. Somebody posts a link about the negotiations that you feel is overly positive and not accurately reflective of the tone of the piece then by all means, if you feel it is necessary argue against it, but argue against the point not the person, which is all that's happened these past 400 pages.
Quick example: someone posts about Brexit from a news source about how the UK and EU are at a disagreement about a certain aspect of the negotiations. Their conclusion isn't that this is important for both sides to reach an understanding or that maybe one side or the other needs to be more flexible insert examples here, no it's that BREXIT IS THE WORST DISASTER TO EVER BEFALL THIS NATION IN IT'S HISTORY, AND THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF HOW IT'S DOOMED TO FAILURE! I'D RATHER FACE THE NAZIS AGAIN!!!!!
Not entirely helpful or realistic. Look at your own rhetoric; "We're a ship sailing towards the edge of the world" in your critique of a metaphor used by those in favour of leaving the EU. That's a bit radical isn't it. We've elected to kill ourselves, is that basically what you're saying here? If this topic is causing you so much anger and stress because of your displeasure at how the talks are progressing ("Don't you mean REGRESSING!" Haha, got in before you!) then why put yourself through so much misery...or is this thread somewhere for you to vent? If that is the case, fine be honest that your contributions add nothing to the discussion and nobody should take what you say seriously, i'm just letting you know that as someone who does come on this thread and who respects the input of Len Rum, SWP's Back, Damo et al who clearly have a better understanding of the terminology being used when these announcements are made than I, that contributions like yours and others that focuses solely on insults of opinions are not entirely useful.
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stonerblue
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Her negotiating position was weakened June 8th by the electorate returning the wrong result, according to William Hague.
I'm sure the remainers will be able to justify £50bn for whatever, come to think of it, assuming we do pay £50bn, what are we paying £50bn for?
Seems the only way to square the circle in Ireland is to give Northern Ireland special status. The DUP won't like that, it's the slippery slope to a united Ireland. We might be heading for another election quite soon and then the unthinkable.....
As i predicted 12 months ago.
The perfect fumble
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You can only beat what's in front of you.
Ifwecouldjust.......
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Her negotiating position was weakened June 8th by the electorate returning the wrong result, according to William Hague.
I'm sure the remainers will be able to justify £50bn for whatever, come to think of it, assuming we do pay £50bn, what are we paying £50bn for?
Seems the only way to square the circle in Ireland is to give Northern Ireland special status. The DUP won't like that, it's the slippery slope to a united Ireland. We might be heading for another election quite soon and then the unthinkable.....
We are paying the £50 billion as it is funds that we have committed to for ongoing projects in the EU. Those funds cannot be dispersed against the other members because had they known the total cost they would have to bear might have influenced their decision to sign up.
You don't honestly think that this is just a figure pulled out of a hat do you? Everything to do with exiting the EU will be contained within the agreement. (if it wasn't we wouldn't be arguing over it we would just be telling them to stuff it) All someone had to do was to read the thing. Surprisingly the politicians didn't make this clear in the run up to the referendum, had they done so (along with lots of other facts) the public who have had some substantial information on which to make up their minds. This makes me believe that Call me Dave and the Tories wanted the vote to go the way of the leavers.
The perfect fumble
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You're right of course, but if you share a house with others and someone leaves, your share of the bills goes up, pleading you didn't factor in the possibility that someone might leave wouldn't get you very far with your flatmates.
With that said, mature nation states don't just up stumps and leave others in the lurch, even if there might be some legal fig leaf.
As for....
Hum? Not so sure, I think they were just weak and inept.
BobKowalski
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I'm not a Socialist (although it is not an absolute term) but I guess I am a Social Democrat(ish). Globalisation has more positives than negatives. I support a strong a welfare system to counter some of the negatives. State aid to industry is not incompatible with EU rules given for example the train networks in a lot of EU countries are state owned. Technically some of our train companies are state owned. Just not by the UK state. Hell Macron nationalised a shipyard a few months back just to stop an Italian company from taking it over. Shame we don't try some of that shit. Except wait we did. We nationalised some banks after the financial crisis.
I support the concept of the EU if not always it's execution. I support the single market which is far from being a Socialist idea given it was that well known loony leftie Margret fucking Thatcher who pushed for it and her Govt that largely helped created it. I also support free movement and have no idea why I should celebrate the fact that my right to free movement across 27 countries is being removed because yes the removal of citizen rights is always cause for celebration is it not?
I also think that Brexit will prove to be a benefit to the EU as nothing shapes and revitalises an institution more than an existential crisis so I am pleased for that. Trump has also helped. The benefits of watching a stupid idea unfold and a stupid arsehole in action cannot be underestimated.
And yes I did say this is a football forum and not a Think Tank but then have you seen some of the gibbering nonsense that sometimes comes out of Think Tanks?
And talking of gibberish I note that David Davis has abandoned his computer tracked customs idea after a whole two weeks. Well done. Our crack negotiating team strikes again. And Davis is the brains of the fucking outfit. Christ on a fucking bike.
Look if you want a Brexit that works and doesn't hurt there is only one solution. Pay the EU to sort it out for us. £50 billion is being bandied about so here's what we do. Give it to them. We are going to give them a shed load of dosh at some point anyway so just do it with the proviso that they sort it out with minimal pain for everyone. We can still turn up to the negotiations every few months or so and make it look good. Trust me know one will notice and in three years they can hand us a workable plan and run it for us for around say £8 billion a year so that it looks like we got a bit of a saving.
Trust me. It will be a steal. It will be the deal of the fucking century.
smudgedj
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Sao Paulo is in South America and ellipsis use three dots.
No need to thank me; education is a duty.
Insults? What insults? You've just insulted me.
You said no one posted on this thread anything of substance - surely that's an insult to everyone who has contributed including yourself and makes reading your post pointless.
Anyway, yes I post in the hope that in the second referendum I might have persuaded some to vote Remain who previously voted Leave. That may mean not the usual Leavers who cannot be deflected by incompetence or disaster but those who do not post but may yet admit that Brexit is shite.
bluethrunthru
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supposedly looking for a tilt at the top job too ha ha ha - him or Boris - Jesus is this what UK politics on the right have become????
Metal Biker
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It's not an insult it's an observation of mine about the thread.
Offence is taken not given. If YOU feel that my observation on how this thread has 'devovled' into petty insults and ad hominem attacks references you personally then i'm afraid that's your issue. I'm talking about how the thread has become what it has, not that it's always been that way; you're interpreting the post incorrectly, again another example of what has happened to the thread.
Do I think you're a positive contributor? No, I don't. Sorry. (Positive here having the meaning of providing beneficial information that gives an accurate representation of the proceedings, and not 'pro-Brexit'. It's a shame we all have to clarify everything now because people like to interpret things differently to suit their outrage.) Do I feel I do? No, as I stated I welcome the contributions of those who genuinely try and make sense of the verbal diarrhea that comes out, to explain in laymen's terms what's going on because I myself am not privy to the inner workings of the EU, the gargantuan task of negotating our separation to a successful and satisfactory conclusion. Personally I don't care if the EU becomes worse off as a result, but that's just my view.
If your admitted purpose, or at least one of, is to 'persuade' people then may I be one to state that your tactic of insulting them isn't working and it's reached a point now that even if you did say something credible, few on here would now respect it on that basis because of what you've stated in the past. YOU think the Brexit negotiations are shite because you think Brexit is shite, by your own admittance. To a neutral how are they meant to respect your opinion? You've admitted your bias. And that is the purpose of my previous post; this is not a thread for people to explain or discuss what's going on or the potential ramifications from both viewpoints, it's the pro-EU/Anti-Brexit champions arguing with the pro-Brexit/Anti-EU advocates about whose opinion on brexit is most 'right'.
How is that conductive to informing others about the updates to the proceedings? *Something happens* "Oh this is terrible, this proves Brexit's a disaster, blood on your hands for the next generation!" "No this is great news, proves the EU was out to get us all along, things can only get better!"
Four. Hundred. Pages of this shit.
stonerblue
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Education is indeed a duty. That's why our government have the EMA, state education, free FE and we encourage young people to become students....
Ancient Citizen
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When is this second referendum?
And the percentage of the electorate that now wants us to leave is now more than the original vote,
so your fellow democracy deniers appear to be a dwindling band, it looks like all the hair pulling and footstamping
has produced the opposite effect.
I'm afraid screaming 'Brexit is shite' may not be the best approach, but God loves a trier.
What point were you making - I think it has gone over your own head.
Tory? I come from Eccles / Salford
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Ancient Citizen
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Some folk appear to have convinced themselves that anyone who voted out is a Tory, it's a comfort blanket with built
in ear plugs that just can't conceive that more than a goodly few are Labour voters.
We had the 2nd referendum in June 2016.
The 3rd referendum will be on a date yet to be determined.
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