VAR (PL introduction 2019)

Hart of the Matter said:
Good point. I would yes but that guideline has already gone out of the window with the amount of marginal and subjective decisions through VAR so far.
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Well then, isn't it a case of "needing to use it a bit less" and not "don't like how they used it in that game, it's shit, never use it again"?
 
Hart of the Matter said:
Yes, but please follow what that particular conversation was about before commenting.
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Yes, hang on. It was about a wrongly disallowed goal that would have stood under VAR, wasn't it? The useless prick with the whistle was called upon to make a call when he shouldn't have been, because of "a clear and obvious error".
 
Bluearmy said:
Wtf, it was the linesman that gave it. Are you on planet Zog and what are you smoking? Can I have some?
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Lol. Ok. I will try and spell it out but this is now tedious. The linesman gave the offside incorrectly. BUT, that does not automatically rule out the goal. Mason then has to decide if the offside matters (which it shouldn't have in my view). So the ref ruled the goal out. No stimulants and my own fault for drawing us down this dead end...
 
Hart of the Matter said:
Lol. Ok. I will try and spell it out but this is now tedious. The linesman gave the offside incorrectly. BUT, that does not automatically rule out the goal. Mason then has to decide if the offside matters (which it shouldn't have in my view). So the ref ruled the goal out. No stimulants and my own fault for drawing us down this dead end...
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That's the whole point you nugget. If the linesman puts his flag up for offside, the ref has never in 40 years of watching football over ruled him. VAR would make this decision change and be correct. Are you broken?
 
Bluearmy said:
No one gives a toss. But it clearly would improve the shite decisions that are given repeatedly week in week out
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Clearly people do give a toss about shit refereeing performances given the thread dedicated to it.

Once again though you've missed the point. Best you stop quoting me.
 
pudge said:
Clearly people do give a toss about shit refereeing performances given the thread dedicated to it.

Once again though you've missed the point. Best you stop quoting me.
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No one thinks the refs will improve. Unless your in cloud cuckoo land anyway. However, VAR will give us significantly more correct decisions. That's the whole point.
 
The ' i told you so' response after today is understandable and reasonable. However, i believe ( and hope i am wrong) that VAR ( which is inevetible) will create more problems than it solves, will play into the hands of weak/corrupt refs ( through selective use) and spoil the flow of the game and the excitement of the game. I go to see Newcastle Falcons play Rugby. VAR is killing the live experience. Most tries are referred and watched on the big screen. The rush of the try scord has gone only to be replaced with a half hearted cheer when given. What happened today is down to poor officials. It doesnt change my view of VAR. Indeed, my view of it was always based on the practical functioning of it rather than the concept itself so why would today change my view. I want better officiating. I am yet to believe VAR can deliver it.
 
Bluearmy said:
No one thinks the refs will improve. Unless your in cloud cuckoo land anyway. However, VAR will give us significantly more correct decisions. That's the whole point.
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My point is why are the FA not focusing on improving the refs BEFORE they give them another layer of cotton wool to protect them.

I'm not against VAR, I am however against it being implemented at this stage and at the current level of refereeing because it won't fix the root of the problem.
 
pudge said:
My point is why are the FA not focusing on improving the refs BEFORE they give them another layer of cotton wool to protect them.

I'm not against VAR, I am however against it being implemented at this stage and at the current level of refereeing because it won't fix the root of the problem.
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The whole reason VAR is here is because the refereeing is poor, they tried all sorts to fix it and this is the last resort. I actually think it's unfixable personally as its corrupt. Anthony Taylor should tell you all you need to know about the game and the integrity of referees. So the FA have no chance of getting to the root of the problem because it's not a training issue.

VAR may never be perfect. But it will strip the blatant corruption out of the game in its current state. Significantly so. I just can't see how you would not be all for that....
 
pudge said:
My point is why are the FA not focusing on improving the refs BEFORE they give them another layer of cotton wool to protect them.

I'm not against VAR, I am however against it being implemented at this stage and at the current level of refereeing because it won't fix the root of the problem.
Click to expand...

Hart of the Matter said:
The ' i told you so' response after today is understandable and reasonable. However, i believe ( and hope i am wrong) that VAR ( which is inevetible) will create more problems than it solves, will play into the hands of weak/corrupt refs ( through selective use) and spoil the flow of the game and the excitement of the game. I go to see Newcastle Falcons play Rugby. VAR is killing the live experience. Most tries are referred and watched on the big screen. The rush of the try scord has gone only to be replaced with a half hearted cheer when given. What happened today is down to poor officials. It doesnt change my view of VAR. Indeed, my view of it was always based on the practical functioning of it rather than the concept itself so why would today change my view. I want better officiating. I am yet to believe VAR can deliver it.
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Let's look at the facts this weekend. The Liverpool game where it was used, corrected 2 wrong refereeing decisions. The city game where it wasn't, had numerous incorrect decisions which VAR would have corrected. Better officiating is never going to happen, it's why VAR is here in the first place because they've exauhsted all other options. If it's used right (cricket/NFL/rugby) it will significantly improve the number of correct decisions. Surely that is the most important over riding factor??
 
Bluearmy said:
Let's look at the facts this weekend. The Liverpool game where it was used, corrected 2 wrong refereeing decisions. The city game where it wasn't, had numerous incorrect decisions which VAR would have corrected. Better officiating is never going to happen, it's why VAR is here in the first place because they've exauhsted all other options. If it's used right (cricket/NFL/rugby) it will significantly improve the number of correct decisions. Surely that is the most important over riding factor??
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They are not facts about the Liverpool game and what about the Chelsea game against Norwich? We were told it would only be needed in every 3/4 games for obvious errors. It is getting way beyond that. 3 times in one game. Not teething problems, these are inherent problems. God knows what it will be like when it is adopted (which it will be) and we have 8/9 games being VAR simultaniously. Do we have that many competent officials to ref/line/4th and VAR every match. The inconsistencies will be huge but that will be ok with you because if VAR says it is so it becomes a 'fact'.
 
pudge said:
My point is why are the FA not focusing on improving the refs BEFORE they give them another layer of cotton wool to protect them.

I'm not against VAR, I am however against it being implemented at this stage and at the current level of refereeing because it won't fix the root of the problem.
Click to expand...

Hart of the Matter said:
The ' i told you so' response after today is understandable and reasonable. However, i believe ( and hope i am wrong) that VAR ( which is inevetible) will create more problems than it solves, will play into the hands of weak/corrupt refs ( through selective use) and spoil the flow of the game and the excitement of the game. I go to see Newcastle Falcons play Rugby. VAR is killing the live experience. Most tries are referred and watched on the big screen. The rush of the try scord has gone only to be replaced with a half hearted cheer when given. What happened today is down to poor officials. It doesnt change my view of VAR. Indeed, my view of it was always based on the practical functioning of it rather than the concept itself so why would today change my view. I want better officiating. I am yet to believe VAR can deliver it.
Click to expand...

Let's look at the facts this weekend. The Liverpool game where it was used, corrected 2 wrong refereeing decisions. The city game where it wasn't, had numerous incorrect decisions which VAR would have corrected. Better officiating is never going to happen, it's why VAR is here in the first place because they've exauhsted all other options. If it's used right (cricket/NFL/rugby) it will significantly improve the number of correct decisions. Sur lybthat is the most important over riding factor??

Of course it is. The officiating is atrocious. its just highlighting the shocking level of refereeing which is making it vital VAR is used so we can get fair/correct decisions more often than not

The issue isn't VAR. The issue is the staggering volume of incorrect decisions going on in the old system. The sheer volume of incorrect decisions in a tiny number of games tells its own story.
 
If the current system was so reliable we wouldn’t be looking at introducing new measures to iron out the many incorrect decisions. I think the problem isn’t VAR, it’s how VAR is used by bent/incompetent officials.
 
Bluearmy said:
The whole reason VAR is here is because the refereeing is poor, they tried all sorts to fix it and this is the last resort. I actually think it's unfixable personally as its corrupt. Anthony Taylor should tell you all you need to know about the game and the integrity of referees. So the FA have no chance of getting to the root of the problem because it's not a training issue.

VAR may never be perfect. But it will strip the blatant corruption out of the game in its current state. Significantly so. I just can't see how you would not be all for that....
Click to expand...
Sorry but you can't just say "it's corrupt and irreparable" as a means to wash over the standard of referees.

I think there's many factors that produce them, none of which show the officials are inherently corrupt and biased. By that I mean you have former officials coming out saying that they've been influenced by the crowd, by the occasion etc but I don't believe they've gone into the game and decided to to x, y and z.

You have, however, got the recent admission from Clattenburg who did in fact do that when he officiated that Spurs v Chelsea game. He did the exact opposite of what an official is there to do, he dictated the game instead of simply facilitating it. That leads to one of the factors though, Clattenburg specifically, in that there is now a "celebrity" image around match officials these days.

You've got Howard Webb, Dermot Gallagher, Chris Foy, Graham Poll etc all doing television appearances now, all doing newspaper columns, punditry. Officials in the game now will be looking at that and saying "I've to make a name for myself" so that that can be them in 5/10/15 years. The best referees are those you don't notice, those you don't know the name of after all. This pseudo-celebrity image breeds officials who want to make the headlines, put themselves in the spotlight; Mike Dean, Clattenberg, Bobby Madley too is fast becoming the worst.

It also stems this "holier than thou" attitude they all have, or at least contributes to it. They very rarely engage or acknowledge players or officials. I of course don't mean in instances when players scream for cards etc but instances like today; Lee Mason seemed very reluctant at least from what I saw to explain things to both Pep and the players, they're not accountable to the players when in fact they should be.

The communication with players is another factor and again I don't mean specifically in-game. Officials, with all due respect, have not played football at the highest level yet are tasked at refereeing it. Take diving for instance;

Undoubtedly players do it and it makes a tough job trickier for officials. However, when you see the likes of Sane and Walker and the speeds they reach it doesn't take much to knock them over. Do you think Jon Moss has ran fast enough to understand that? They've never been in that situation. Better communication and understanding with the players will lead to better decisions, undeniably.

Accountability is the big factor for me though yet shockingly it's non-existent. VAR does not improve an officials decision making better, it just possibly corrects a bad decision. Therefore it doesn't tackle the issue, it's merely a bandage over a great, big, massive cut. The FA have access to untold amount of angles post-match and the days that follow so any official who constantly makes bad decisions could very easily be found out and punished appropriately; but they aren't. They aren't held accountable by the system that's in place now, so VAR won't and doesn't change that. You can't say 'boo' to an official without being punished, however, they can be as inept as humanly possible without suffering the consequences.

If an officials wage/match fee was at stake, their place as an official on the next round of fixtures (a suspension) then you can guarantee it would produce not only better focus but more sincerity for their job which, again, is to facilitate a game of football and not decide it. That's the biggest cause of their "holier than thou" attitude, they fact they know they're untouchable. If they were held accountable for their bad decisions, which there is zero reason as to why they shouldn't be, then of course that will better them as officials.

Why their match reports aren't open to the public as well is beyond me. If there is nothing untoward in an official's report then why can't the FA make them available to the public after the latest round of fixtures? Even as a fan, the ability see a referee's decision making process and reasoning would greatly improve the view and current disconnect with the game/officials and fans.

It is not a case of "officiating is awful and it won't change", there's many factors that can be addressed and changed before we decide to give them yet another safety net in the form of VAR. Which, again, I am in favour of but at the moment it's the lazy shortcut to sidestepping the underlying issue, it doesn't even address the issue directly. How can anyone argue that? They haven't "exhausted all other options", your viewpoint is part of the problem itself; lazy. As the actual "important overriding factor" IS to improve the standard of refereeing. Otherwise why have officials at all? Why not just the VAR "ref" buzz down to the stadium announcer to stop the game every time they want?

The standard has to improve as well because not every team will have the use of VAR. Football and poor officiating exists outside the Premier League. Just because City vs United will have it doesn't excuse that Southend vs S****horpe won't. So why is it fair to them?... it's not. So the standard of refereeing need's tackled and addressed at all levels because not every level will have VAR.

If there was a linear progression as to how the game and decision making can be improved then VAR is not the next step. The problems go further and beyond extra replays, and all the angles in the world won't fix them but there damn sure are options and actions that can be taken to address them beforehand.

When they actually do exhaust all other options, then by all means, bring it in. By then they should make sure everyone has it or no one does.
 
pudge said:
Sorry but you can't just say "it's corrupt and irreparable" as a means to wash over the standard of referees.

I think there's many factors that produce them, none of which show the officials are inherently corrupt and biased. By that I mean you have former officials coming out saying that they've been influenced by the crowd, by the occasion etc but I don't believe they've gone into the game and decided to to x, y and z.

You have, however, got the recent admission from Clattenburg who did in fact do that when he officiated that Spurs v Chelsea game. He did the exact opposite of what an official is there to do, he dictated the game instead of simply facilitating it. That leads to one of the factors though, Clattenburg specifically, in that there is now a "celebrity" image around match officials these days.

You've got Howard Webb, Dermot Gallagher, Chris Foy, Graham Poll etc all doing television appearances now, all doing newspaper columns, punditry. Officials in the game now will be looking at that and saying "I've to make a name for myself" so that that can be them in 5/10/15 years. The best referees are those you don't notice, those you don't know the name of after all. This pseudo-celebrity image breeds officials who want to make the headlines, put themselves in the spotlight; Mike Dean, Clattenberg, Bobby Madley too is fast becoming the worst.

It also stems this "holier than thou" attitude they all have, or at least contributes to it. They very rarely engage or acknowledge players or officials. I of course don't mean in instances when players scream for cards etc but instances like today; Lee Mason seemed very reluctant at least from what I saw to explain things to both Pep and the players, they're not accountable to the players when in fact they should be.

The communication with players is another factor and again I don't mean specifically in-game. Officials, with all due respect, have not played football at the highest level yet are tasked at refereeing it. Take diving for instance;

Undoubtedly players do it and it makes a tough job trickier for officials. However, when you see the likes of Sane and Walker and the speeds they reach it doesn't take much to knock them over. Do you think Jon Moss has ran fast enough to understand that? They've never been in that situation. Better communication and understanding with the players will lead to better decisions, undeniably.

Accountability is the big factor for me though yet shockingly it's non-existent. VAR does not improve an officials decision making better, it just possibly corrects a bad decision. Therefore it doesn't tackle the issue, it's merely a bandage over a great, big, massive cut. The FA have access to untold amount of angles post-match and the days that follow so any official who constantly makes bad decisions could very easily be found out and punished appropriately; but they aren't. They aren't held accountable by the system that's in place now, so VAR won't and doesn't change that. You can't say 'boo' to an official without being punished, however, they can be as inept as humanly possible without suffering the consequences.

If an officials wage/match fee was at stake, their place as an official on the next round of fixtures (a suspension) then you can guarantee it would produce not only better focus but more sincerity for their job which, again, is to facilitate a game of football and not decide it. That's the biggest cause of their "holier than thou" attitude, they fact they know they're untouchable. If they were held accountable for their bad decisions, which there is zero reason as to why they shouldn't be, then of course that will better them as officials.

Why their match reports aren't open to the public as well is beyond me. If there is nothing untoward in an official's report then why can't the FA make them available to the public after the latest round of fixtures? Even as a fan, the ability see a referee's decision making process and reasoning would greatly improve the view and current disconnect with the game/officials and fans.

It is not a case of "officiating is awful and it won't change", there's many factors that can be addressed and changed before we decide to give them yet another safety net in the form of VAR. Which, again, I am in favour of but at the moment it's the lazy shortcut to sidestepping the underlying issue, it doesn't even address the issue directly. How can anyone argue that? They haven't "exhausted all other options", your viewpoint is part of the problem itself; lazy. As the actual "important overriding factor" IS to improve the standard of refereeing. Otherwise why have officials at all? Why not just the VAR "ref" buzz down to the stadium announcer to stop the game every time they want?

The standard has to improve as well because not every team will have the use of VAR. Football and poor officiating exists outside the Premier League. Just because City vs United will have it doesn't excuse that Southend vs S****horpe won't. So why is it fair to them?... it's not. So the standard of refereeing need's tackled and addressed at all levels because not every level will have VAR.

If there was a linear progression as to how the game and decision making can be improved then VAR is not the next step. The problems go further and beyond extra replays, and all the angles in the world won't fix them but there damn sure are options and actions that can be taken to address them beforehand.

When they actually do exhaust all other options, then by all means, bring it in. By then they should make sure everyone has it or no one does.
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What Halsey have clattenburg have said since retiring makes all of what you've written pointless I'm afraid.....
 
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