We’re bombing Syria

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Homar said:
I haven't a clue. It's impossible for me to predict the answer to that question.
But as I have said, I would wholeheartedly support this. My father grew up in a small village amongst the remnants of a small Jewish community on the North coast of Algeria. There were still a number of Jews living there whist he was a child. The community disappeared slowly and I don't think that there is anything left of it now. I have only visited briefly and so I can't gauge how receptive the locals would be to this.
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Glad we're all in agreement. Israel should offer the right of return to all descendents of displaced Palestinians at the same time that all the countries that forced Jews to leave do exactly the same.
Alternatively they could come up with a slightly more pragmatic solution and have Israel absorb the displaced Jews (like they already have) and the Palestinians get absorbed by the countries they are living in. Maybe give them the land and property previously owned by Jews?
 
Homar said:
So you know the thinking of everybody in all those countries?
The Jews lived amongst the Arabs for many hundreds of years without issue. Only after the creation of the state of Israel did things turn sour. If the Palestinians were given right of return than I see no reason why they shouldn't welcome back any Jews that would like to return to their lands.
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Without issue? Apart from living as dhimmis with limited rights.
 
west didsblue said:
But you are absolving them of any responsibility for dealing with the situation.
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No, they share the responsibility.

In my mind the solution is this:
  • One state "Israel-Palestine" with full right of return for all Palestinians and equal rights amongst its citizens.
  • Peace between all Arab states and Israel-Palestine.
  • Right of return for all Jews to the lands that their parents or grand-parents legally owned, with full citizenship and equal rights.
 
SWP's back said:
So, reading between the lines, you think he’s a bit of a Jew hater?
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No not at all mate. I would hope nobody on here, not least a long time poster would’ve survived so long if he/she had an irrational hate of all Jews and was openly posting words to that effect. I was merely pointing out he/she had mentioned the Saudi’s and the Israeli’s in his post. He was pulled up about the Israeli bit whilst ignoring the bit he had posted about the Saudi’s. As far as I know he could hate both in equal measure?
 
west didsblue said:
Glad we're all in agreement. Israel should offer the right of return to all descendents of displaced Palestinians at the same time that all the countries that forced Jews to leave do exactly the same.
Alternatively they could come up with a slightly more pragmatic solution and have Israel absorb the displaced Jews (like they already have) and the Palestinians get absorbed by the countries they are living in. Maybe give them the land and property previously owned by Jews?
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If the Palestinians were happy to accept what you term a "more pragmatic solution" then there would be no issue. But they are not happy to accept that.
 
Homar said:
I would certainly have supported whatever Yemen decided through democratic means, even if that were to keep Hadi in power.

Yes, Saudi Arabia should shut up and stop its genocide. Yemen, and the Shia population in particular, has many reasons to be aggrieved at Saudi Arabia's current and past actions in the country. I have already explained that the Houthis do not nearly have the military means or the will to invade and occupy Saudi Arabia. Their army consists almost entirely of foot soldiers armed with AK-47s. Very few tanks or artillery. One or two rusting Soviet-era scuds with a CEP of over 1km. No body armour. Most don't even possess shoes.

Finally, on the parallels drawn between the wars in Yemen and Syria, I will point out some fundamental differences:
  1. Syria is a war fought between the Syrian government (with the support of the Russians, Iranians and some militia) and various terrorist groups, extremist groups, proxy forces and nation states. This cannot just be described as a civil war, as the west so desperately attempts to do. Most or at least a hugely significant number of the terrorists, extremists and rebels are not Syrian. They are Saudi, Turkish, Iraqi, Afghan, Chechen, Sudanese (and other Africans), European, etc. There is no question that there are Syrians amongst these groups, but the vast majority of them are imported hardened extremists. This is in stark contrast to the Houthis, which are all from Yemen, and are not savages.
  2. The war in Yemen is not a proxy war. Iranian influence is very limited. Even the Saudis do not have a proxy force fighting in Yemen. The UAE is on the ground in limited numbers, but they are based in the South of the country and their aim seems to be the partition of the state into the old North and South Yemen. As I already pointed out, the Saudis are making no effort to change the situation on the ground. They just bomb indiscriminately across the entire country and often target historical sites, which they view to be incompatible with their Wahhabi ideology. Whist the Syrians are fighting for the future of their state, the Saudis are fighting to kill and maim as many Shia as possible without having well-defined strategic goals.
  3. Assad's future should be determined through democratic elections. I have no problem with his removal, so long as it is the will of the Syrian people. Not the Saudi people. Not the Turkish people. Not the American people. Not the British people. This is Russia's public position. It is also now the west's public position, although their actions suggest otherwise. This is a very delicate situation. Syria now contains hundreds of thousands of people with horrendously extreme views. The forcible "overthrow" of Assad would likely result in a sweeping genocide of the Shia and other religious minorities.
  4. There exist many sides in the Syrian war, each seeking different and often mutually exclusive outcomes. The Syrian government wants to regain control and security of the whole country. The Kurds want the formation of their own state across the north of the country. The Turks want to prevent the formation of a Kurish state by establishing their own pseudo-state on the same lands, which it intends to populate with the extremist but Turkish-friendly FSA fighters under its control. The Russians want to retain the current Russian-friendly Syrian state institutions and maintain their naval base. The Iranians want much the same as the Russians, whilst ensuring that the country doesn't fall into the hands of the Americans and the Saudis. The Americans want to curb Iran's influence in the country. The various extremist groups also each have their own goals. Some want the formation of a Wahhabi Islamic Caliphate. Others want to religiously cleanse the population. Others are more moderate and just want to live in a state that represents and respects them as citizens. This latter group is a small minority. They generally agree to lay down their arms and make security agreements when the SAA advances into their territory.
So yes, I do have a problem with the forcible removal of Assad, because what follows would make the current situation look like Disney Land.
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What a big complicated mess.
 
Homar said:
No, they share the responsibility.

In my mind the solution is this:
  • One state "Israel-Palestine" with full right of return for all Palestinians and equal rights amongst its citizens.
  • Peace between all Arab states and Israel-Palestine.
  • Right of return for all Jews to the lands that their parents or grand-parents legally owned, with full citizenship and equal rights.
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No problem with that if all sides agreed.
However what actually needs to happen is that all sides need to talk and come up with a solution that they all agree rather than what someone on a football forum in England thinks is a good idea. With the current Israeli and Palestinian leadership that's not happening soon unfortunately.
 
SWP's back said:
I know the policy objectives of the governments yeah.

Are you thick or naive or simply unable to use the real world around you when debating?
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If you believe that you know the thinking of all the people in all those countries then you are a fool and there is no need to continue.
 
Homar said:
If the Palestinians were happy to accept what you term a "more pragmatic solution" then there would be no issue. But they are not happy to accept that.
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It's not just the Palestinians that won't accept that. It's the countries that host them as well.
 
Machiavelli said:
No not at all mate. I would hope nobody on here, not least a long time poster would’ve survived so long if he/she had an irrational hate of all Jews and was openly posting words to that effect. I was merely pointing out he/she had mentioned the Saudi’s and the Israeli’s in his post. He was pulled up about the Israeli bit whilst ignoring the bit he had posted about the Saudi’s. As far as I know he could hate both in equal measure?
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Was a bit of sarcasm bud.
 
west didsblue said:
No problem with that if all sides agreed.
However what actually needs to happen is that all sides need to talk and come up with a solution that they all agree rather than what someone on a football forum in England thinks is a good idea. With the current Israeli and Palestinian leadership that's not happening soon unfortunately.
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Sadly on this I fear you are correct.
 
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west didsblue said:
It's not just the Palestinians that won't accept that. It's the countries that host them as well.
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Yes, but more importantly, the Palestinians are not happy to accept that outcome. If they were, and if the Arab countries were not, then that would be different.
 
Homar said:
If you believe that you know the thinking of all the people in all those countries then you are a fool and there is no need to continue.
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The people in those countries matter not. Look at Syria and Egypt. Do you think the will of the people is high up on the minds of those in charge?
 
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