Religion

[malg]

I think it’s possible most don’t really believe deep down. Like a kid clinging onto Santa Claus, hearing rumours he’s made up but just shutting it out.

I'd like to think that's true, as a grown adult can't genuinely believe in God. I'm already waiting on that "it all depends on epwhat you mean by God" fucking shite. They always hide behind bollocks like that. We all know what it means - you believe in a fucking idiotic ideal that someone up there is watching us......fuck off. It's just wank, and angers me nearly as much as Rags, or men who fucking sing that Robbie Williams Angels shite at karaoke......cünts.

 

[arfurclue]

The most important thing is that the heretics get flayed alive.

In some religious people's eyes I would qualify as a heretic - a blasphemer to be tortured and burned at the stake. In other non-religious
people eye's I apparently qualify as a loony, unhinged, utterly cuntish fool that should be put in a mental asylum. Such is life ;)

 

[aguero93:20]

In some religious people's eyes I would qualify as a heretic - a blasphemer to be tortured and burned at the stake. In other non-religious
people eye's I apparently qualify as a loony, unhinged, utterly cuntish fool that should be put in a mental asylum. Such is life ;)

You're going to burn in hell mate. I'll get the first round?

 

[arfurclue]

You're going to burn in hell mate. I'll get the first round?

Cheers! It seems there are many different ways of basically saying 'if you don't agree/submit to my dogma, then you will surely go to hell.'
I'm not always sure whether it's best to mention that its those moments when I drop dogmatic thinking that I begin to open to states of being that feel more 'heavenly' in
nature than 'hellish.' Probably best not to, as that might put the shit amongst the pigeons or the cat might hit the fan or something. But
then again...

 

[I'm With Stupid]

You're going to burn in hell mate. I'll get the first round?

 

[tonea2003]

Cheers! It seems there are many different ways of basically saying 'if you don't agree/submit to my dogma, then you will surely go to hell.'
I'm not always sure whether it's best to mention that its those moments when I drop dogmatic thinking that I begin to open to states of being that feel more 'heavenly' in
nature than 'hellish.' Probably best not to, as that might put the shit amongst the pigeons or the cat might hit the fan or something. But
then again...

i doubt you will be going to hell

 

[arfurclue]

i doubt you will be going to hell

Thanks :) And food for thought, if you wish to consider...

What if there could be said to be two ways - one could be called the battle of good vs evil, the other the union of heaven and earth.

The former might involve learning (and trying to follow) a set of morals so as to become good and then help God defeat evil. If God reckons you've done a good enough job then you'll get to go to heaven after you die.

The latter might be more akin to asking 'are you suffering? If so, here is a way that you can freely choose (no 'punishment' if you don't) to let go of the binds of 'hell,' so opening more to 'heavenly' qualities (eg love, harmony, joy, beauty etc) that can then come to be known and expressed through earth (the body).

If one then looks back at who put the bible together, it might be an idea to ask whether they were more likely to be invested in the former (eg war) or the latter (eg harmony). Beyond that, it might be suggested that in the former way it would be the church who decided who was best following 'the way', according their understanding; in the latter the populace themselves would come to know how well they were each following 'the way' through their own direct experience.

The other thing that might be suggested is that the good vs evil or union of heaven and earth choice, is not something that is necessarily limited to religion - other versions of this may be found in governent, law, science etc

 

[tonea2003]

Thanks :) And food for thought, if you wish to consider...

What if there could be said to be two ways - one could be called the battle of good vs evil, the other the union of heaven and earth.

The former might involve learning (and trying to follow) a set of morals so as to become good and then help God defeat evil. If God reckons you've done a good enough job then you'll get to go to heaven after you die.

The latter might be more akin to asking 'are you suffering? If so, here is a way that you can freely choose (no 'punishment' if you don't) to let go of the binds of 'hell,' so opening more to 'heavenly' qualities (eg love, harmony, joy, beauty etc) that can then come to be known and expressed through earth (the body).

If one then looks back at who put the bible together, it might be an idea to ask whether they were more likely to be invested in the former (eg war) or the latter (eg harmony). Beyond that, it might be suggested that in the former way it would be the church who decided who was best following 'the way', according their understanding; in the latter the populace themselves would come to know how well they were each following 'the way' through their own direct experience.

The other thing that might be suggested is that the good vs evil or union of heaven and earth choice, is not something that is necessarily limited to religion - other versions of this may be found in governent, law, science etc

i was with you up to word evil then it went into realms i do not recognize, you got me back when other versions came in

 

[arfurclue]

i was with you up to word evil then it went into realms i do not recognize, you got me back when other versions came in

Ah, ok. Roughly speaking it's just speaking of a change from a way of war to a way of peace. For me I had to go deeper into 'war,' which lead to suffering, which lead to a deeper
desire for peace. In that way I found that quite a lot that is considered normal by society is more a reflection of a way of war than a way of peace. So 'religion' can be used
to serve war for sure but, for me, having an interest in divinity does not necessarily imply a belief/investment in war. The same goes for other fields too.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

or men who fucking sing that Robbie Williams Angels shite at karaoke......cünts.

 

[arfurclue]

I'd like to think that's true, as a grown adult can't genuinely believe in God. I'm already waiting on that "it all depends on epwhat you mean by God" fucking shite. They always hide behind bollocks like that. We all know what it means - you believe in a fucking idiotic ideal that someone up there is watching us......fuck off. It's just wank, and angers me nearly as much as Rags, or men who fucking sing that Robbie Williams Angels shite at karaoke......cünts.

This is like a prisoner getting angry at the 'stupid idea' that anyone could possibly know freedom outside of the prison. I mean the prisoner knows for sure that they are the best informed and most intelligent person around, right - and yet they don't experience this freedom, so therefore how could it possibly exist?!?!? Then again, perhaps it is wisest to convince oneself that the prison is actually one's home, gradually forgetting any notions of freedom, settling for bread and water whilst decreeing that feasts are but fantasises for the deluded. Sounds great.

 

[tonea2003]

This is like a prisoner getting angry at the 'stupid idea' that anyone could possibly know freedom outside of the prison. I mean the prisoner knows for sure that they are the best informed and most intelligent person around, right - and yet they don't experience this freedom, so therefore how could it possibly exist?!?!? Then again, perhaps it is wisest to convince oneself that the prison is actually one's home, gradually forgetting any notions of freedom, settling for bread and water whilst decreeing that feasts are but fantasises for the deluded. Sounds great.

ok arfur have you any evidence bar faith for this freedom and dont bother with any of your riddles if you don't mind

 

[arfurclue]

ok arfur have you any evidence bar faith for this freedom and dont bother with any of your riddles if you don't mind

Ok. Am not sure I have a context to best explain this but will give it a go. And if I fail to communicate then I apologise - not trying to be an ass, just am still learning (albeit slowly perhaps).

For me, at times, I have felt like a prisoner of depression - unhappy and seemingly stuck in 'darkness.' Then, through various ways, I have experienced the shackles of
depression being released - whereupon there is a palpable sense of feeling 'lighter,' that joy is now able to freely flow through and as me. This might not fit in with other people's beliefs, it might not fulfil their need for evidence, might even lead to them telling you that you cannot be experiencing what you are. But it is a obvious as obvious can be.

Now, perhaps it is possible to take this idea and 'generalise.' For example I might say that I felt like I have been a prisoner of my own fears. As I come to face them and allow them to be released I come to feel a sense of freedom that some might call Love. Again, there might e those that say that because no-one can pin it down in a laboratory, then it can't exist. Do I listen to them or come to trust what within quite palpably is?

In this way I can find the likes of the bible helpful BUT it can quite easily come to an extra heavily fortified prison - thus perhaps denying its original purpose and twisting its message.

So, one might be able to theorise about freedom from a prison but the real, practical evidence only comes from walking out of the prison doors.

 

[Elbow beards]

Ok. Am not sure I have a context to best explain this but will give it a go. And if I fail to communicate then I apologise - not trying to be an ass, just am still learning (albeit slowly perhaps).

For me, at times, I have felt like a prisoner of depression - unhappy and seemingly stuck in 'darkness.' Then, through various ways, I have experienced the shackles of
depression being released - whereupon there is a palpable sense of feeling 'lighter,' that joy is now able to freely flow through and as me. This might not fit in with other people's beliefs, it might not fulfil their need for evidence, might even lead to them telling you that you cannot be experiencing what you are. But it is a obvious as obvious can be.

Now, perhaps it is possible to take this idea and 'generalise.' For example I might say that I felt like I have been a prisoner of my own fears. As I come to face them and allow them to be released I come to feel a sense of freedom that some might call Love. Again, there might e those that say that because no-one can pin it down in a laboratory, then it can't exist. Do I listen to them or come to trust what within quite palpably is?

In this way I can find the likes of the bible BUT it can quite easily come to an extra heavily fortified prison - thus perhaps denying its original purpose and twisting its message.

So, one might be able to theorise about freedom from a prison but the real, practical evidence only comes from walking out of the prison doors.

So that's a no then

 

[tonea2003]

Ok. Am not sure I have a context to best explain this but will give it a go. And if I fail to communicate then I apologise - not trying to be an ass, just am still learning (albeit slowly perhaps).

For me, at times, I have felt like a prisoner of depression - unhappy and seemingly stuck in 'darkness.' Then, through various ways, I have experienced the shackles of
depression being released - whereupon there is a palpable sense of feeling 'lighter,' that joy is now able to freely flow through and as me. This might not fit in with other people's beliefs, it might not fulfil their need for evidence, might even lead to them telling you that you cannot be experiencing what you are. But it is a obvious as obvious can be.

Now, perhaps it is possible to take this idea and 'generalise.' For example I might say that I felt like I have been a prisoner of my own fears. As I come to face them and allow them to be released I come to feel a sense of freedom that some might call Love. Again, there might e those that say that because no-one can pin it down in a laboratory, then it can't exist. Do I listen to them or come to trust what within quite palpably is?

In this way I can find the likes of the bible BUT it can quite easily come to an extra heavily fortified prison - thus perhaps denying its original purpose and twisting its message.

So, one might be able to theorise about freedom from a prison but the real, practical evidence only comes from walking out of the prison doors.

but why does this feeling lead to the rationale that there is afterlife/heaven/god (i have to assume that is what you mean) that's quite a leap on a feeling

 

[JASR]

... about freedom from a prison but the real, practical evidence only comes from walking out of the prison doors.

It’s not practical evidence.

The Inspiration and desire to escape, you correctly (in your case) attributed to your brains use of a religious crutch to help you escape. There are an infinite number of other crutches, people just need to locate any sort of ‘hook’ to take them out.

Your brain then has taken that as a sign that a religious self help book, must indicate god did it, and you must remain pious and trapped in the belief of that particular god, one that your brain happened to pick, all by itself.

Your brain has made you escape from one prison of your own making (presumably/generally- I don’t know), into another, trapping your body and now brain in another prison, but this time of thought and illogicality.

Religious stories , as with any stories, are useful in providing inspiration, assurance, belief and reaffirmation. They are stories, allegories though - nothing proves god is more than a way for the ancient humans to try and make sense of the world ...and ultimately control their fellow humans - prisoners of their own minds.

In the case of your religious book, do you do the usual of taking the bits you happen to agree with and preaching those, whilst ignoring and not doing the rest ?

 

[masterwig]

How many people do I have to get to say they believe something before we are given the protections religion gets?

Ultimately all religion was started by one person who made some stuff up and it snowballed from there.

 

[arfurclue]

Anyone here ever been to pub? Maybe this pub has a door at the front. And they have a sign on the door which says 'push.' Some may follow this instruction, enter the pub and go enjoy a pint. Others will stand outside, try to pull the door then insist it is impossible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint. "Give me proof' they might say. "Push the door, go enter the enter the pub and find out yourself' one might respond. ' No, I demand that you give me evidence that it is possible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint, by pulling the door open.' ' Whatever the fuck. Am off for a pint. Enjoy.' Cheers ;)

 

[tonea2003]

Anyone here ever been to pub? Maybe this pub has a door at the front. And they have a sign on the door which says 'push.' Some may follow this instruction, enter the pub and go enjoy a pint. Others will stand outside, try to pull the door then insist it is impossible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint. "Give me proof' they might say. "Push the door, go enter the enter the pub and find out yourself' one might respond. ' No, I demand that you give me evidence that it is possible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint, by pulling the door open.' ' Whatever the fuck. Am off for a pint. Enjoy.' Cheers ;)

there is a reason your are talking in riddles and not answering simple direct questions

 

[masterwig]

Anyone here ever been to pub? Maybe this pub has a door at the front. And they have a sign on the door which says 'push.' Some may follow this instruction, enter the pub and go enjoy a pint. Others will stand outside, try to pull the door then insist it is impossible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint. "Give me proof' they might say. "Push the door, go enter the enter the pub and find out yourself' one might respond. ' No, I demand that you give me evidence that it is possible to enter the pub and enjoy a pint, by pulling the door open.' ' Whatever the fuck. Am off for a pint. Enjoy.' Cheers ;)

False equivalency.

There is a door nobody has walked through. We don't know what is on the other side but legend has it there is nothing behind the door. The religious man never tests the door and never finds out. The atheist has a look outside the door and assesses the options before opening it and seeing what's inside. He takes pictures. The religious man denies the evidence. He denies the door even exists.