Donald Trump

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blueincy said:
Trump as just left this thread:-)

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With bog roll stuck to his foot.
 
lust overlord said:
They all do pretty much lie at one time or another,or don't tell the whole truth at least.

Trumps being demonized ,when really his opponents,whether political,media,or whoever, would probably be better off ridiculing him at every opportunity.
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That’s been tried but it just enthuses his base as they see it as just partisan attacks. On the other hand his base are so in thrall to him that nothing anyone says has any impact on their views of him.
 
Damocles said:
That's not an answer.



I'd love to know your difference between "distorting facts" and "telling outright lies" because they mean the same thing. A lie is a lie is a lie. You're either being truthful or you're not.
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Distorting facts could be as simple as using the minority of a poll to support something; like saying "... a third of all Americans support Trump... " whilst ignoring the obvious majority and other two thirds.

It wouldn't be a lie, just very selective and manipulative to the facts.

That's a made up statistic and example obviously.
 
Damocles said:
Can only argue the point but in front of me.

Trump isn't some exception to the rule. The only thing he does differently is have a much more brash, bombastic and open style about it. The only difference that there is, is that his style keeps him in the media loop to a much greater degree than the traditional style.
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That is a view of him that is very novice in insight on how he has become the figure he now is, which is to say the actor and soundbite vehicle that is all he is. Trump's team, obviously not he himself, have become the most effective 'politicians' since social media became a real force in the 2010s. That isnt to say a credible force of course, because it isn't. But it has influence, as even a fact can be presented as a lie if you put it on a platform so broad that a percentage lf it will believe it. What his team did is embrace this and leave all other credible, traditional and legitimate figures behind because they all either misunderstood or disregarded how much influence it had.
He is in the media loop because he is nothing else without it. Thats why he tweets rather than speaks like an adult in forums where he may be asked a question and expected to give a reasonable answer.
For a clever bloke, you have really misunderstood with this idiot is doing.
 
Uncle Wally One Ball said:
That is a view of him that is very novice in insight on how he has become the figure he now is, which is to say the actor and soundbite vehicle that is all he is. Trump's team, obviously not he himself, have become the most effective 'politicians' since social media became a real force in the 2010s. That isnt to say a credible force of course, because it isn't. But it has influence, as even a fact can be presented as a lie if you put it on a platform so broad that a percentage lf it will believe it. What his team did is embrace this and leave all other credible, traditional and legitimate figures behind because they all either misunderstood or disregarded how much influence it had.
He is in the media loop because he is nothing else without it. Thats why he tweets rather than speaks like an adult in forums where he may be asked a question and expected to give a reasonable answer.
For a clever bloke, you have really misunderstood with this idiot is doing.
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I don't go in for conspiracy based on very little. Trump seems to jump between an autistic idiot who is manipulated behind the scenes by his team of puppetmaster, and an evil supergenius who has Pied Pipered the nation and has a grand plan to dump the US into fascism. Can't be both guys. Got to pick one of them and stick to it.

And Trump is an evolution rather than revolution. Obama was the revolution and his techniques have been copied by every leader from Macron to Cameron to Corbyn to Trump since then.

His team pretty much invented the modern social media data scraping technology and targeted ads but more importantly he invented Trumps rhetoric.

Drain the swamp is the right wing version of Hope and Change.

They mean literally the same thing; which is that they both mean nothing specifically but sort of sound like they do, and that they are broad enough to mean whatever the voter wants them to mean. Obama also used to conversational rhetorical style that Trump adopted in the early 2010s where lots of people felt like he was "their guy".

Trump is doing nothing particularly unique here. He's espousing pretty typical right wing views in the US, he's creating tribalism against his political enemies within his base using identity politics, and he's constantly telling voters what they want to hear without actually telling them anything. He also targeted electoral votes over and above the election to surprise the result, making sure he targeted things extremely directly to the population rather than a state by state level. He also says outlandish stuff knowing that his base will try to find a way to make it true, and he can build in the moderate vote by distancing himself from it so he looks the victim.

Now go back and replace Trump with Obama or Corbyn or Cameron or Farage. They're all playing the game that Obama's team invented. Clinton and May were playing early 2000s/analogue politics in a digital age which is why they didn't get the results they were after.

I'm not blind to Trump not do I find him particularly compelling. I just think the opposition to him is the largest overreaction I've ever seen in Western politics and people have lost any semblance of sensibleness about him. He's a movie villain to them and they're the Avengers
 
domalino said:
“Senators have been muzzled. So I will now say three things that committee staff has explained are permissible to say without violating committee rules. … One: This was not a full and fair investigation. It was sharply limited in scope and did not explore the relevant confirming facts. Two: The available documents do not exonerate Mr. Kavanaugh.

And three: the available documents contradict statements Mr. Kavanaugh made under oath. I would like to back up these points with explicit statements from the FBI documents — explicit statements that should be available for the American people to see. But the Republicans have locked the documents behind closed doors.”

​
Senator Warren on the FBI report...
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It was clear from the start that when Kavemaugh was bumped to the shortlist after effectively claiming a sitting president should not be subject to the law that this was going to be a sham nomination.

The American public have to take a portion of the blame here. They knew what they were getting with Trump. Not enough people came out to vote against him, which allowed for the possibility of a foreign nation to illegally affect the election result. And here we are.
 
Damocles said:
Because the right to privacy is a fundamental human right established by every human rights charter on the planet?
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Haha...haha...haha...haha...

Don’t make shit up! It ruins whatever cogent point you might have. For instance, had I said “the police have tapped my phone because I got a speeding ticket” your comment would be a worthy comment. If I said, “I’m running for a lifetime appointment to the SCOTUS, and I used o be a political operative who leaked negative information about the Clinton’s during the Starr investigation, and I may have perjured myself about my GP behavior over the last 30+ years, and I may well have been a blind drunk for much of high school and college....but I will overturn Roe and fuck Democrats at every opportunity, so please appoint me...” I’d say haha...haha...haha...haha...because it has nothing to do with the issue!
 
Trevor Morley's Tache said:
It was clear from the start that when Kavemaugh was bumped to the shortlist after effectively claiming a sitting president should not be subject to the law that this was going to be a sham nomination.

The American public have to take a portion of the blame here. They knew what they were getting with Trump. Not enough people came out to vote against him, which allowed for the possibility of a foreign nation to illegally affect the election result. And here we are.
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The ones who voted AGAINST HIM did, but the ones who voted for him? I’m not sure most of them know much of anything, if they believe even a fraction of what he says.
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Haha...haha...haha...haha...

Don’t make shit up! It ruins whatever cogent point you might have. For instance, had I said “the police have tapped my phone because I got a speeding ticket” your comment would be a worthy comment. If I said, “I’m running for a lifetime appointment to the SCOTUS, and I used o be a political operative who leaked negative information about the Clinton’s during the Starr investigation, and I may have perjured myself about my GP behavior over the last 30+ years, and I may well have been a blind drunk for much of high school and college....but I will overturn Roe and fuck Democrats at every opportunity, so please appoint me...” I’d say haha...haha...haha...haha...because it has nothing to do with the issue!
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Human rights apply even to people that you don't agree with politically.

Mad, I know
 
Damocles said:
Human rights apply even to people that you don't agree with politically.

Mad, I know
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This is NOT a privacy OR human rights issue. Anyone should be able to see this. Apparently not!

He CHOSE to put himself forward for consideration, and is thus required to lay his life bare. He has tried to hide plenty, as have his supporters in high places (100,000 pages of “secret” pages from his time doing dirty political work for the Right), and your assertion that he is entitled to “human rights,” while true, has absolutely nothing to do with this process....politics or none! No one is “violating his human rights” by asking him to be honest about what he did when....

Again, it is so glaringly obvious, it concerns me that you can’t see it.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
And exactly why do you think that is?
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Because the Democrats like many other left leaning parties, have one tool and every issue is a nail. That hammer is moral outrage and accusing the person of being morally deficient.

It seems to be the only way that they know how to win the argument, but the problem is that they're not winning the argument so it's pointless.

With Trump, they don't know how to fight him on an even keel because they setup Sanders to lose, who was the only leader they had that could actually do this head on. So now they try to take the legs from under him but this cannot work. You're not going to shame people out of voting Trump.

So they're like a robot stuck in a loop, endlessly repeating the same outrage increasing tactic to where it's now too much and they're becoming parody. It also has made Trump look like he's a victim which is the dumbest of all the things they've done.
 
Damocles said:
Because the Democrats like many other left leaning parties, have one tool and every issue is a nail. That hammer is moral outrage and accusing the person of being morally deficient.

It seems to be the only way that they know how to win the argument, but the problem is that they're not winning the argument so it's pointless.

With Trump, they don't know how to fight him on an even keel because they setup Sanders to lose, who was the only leader they had that could actually do this head on. So now they try to take the legs from under him but this cannot work. You're not going to shame people out of voting Trump.

So they're like a robot stuck in a loop, endlessly repeating the same outrage increasing tactic to where it's now too much and they're becoming parody. It also has made Trump look like he's a victim which is the dumbest of all the things they've done.
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But there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of conservative Republicans appalled with him, including very prominent ones, including people on his very own staff. He has the lowest worldwide rating of any President ever, and its not close, so there are non-political cross-cultural currents leaning in the exact same direction as what you describe as an "overreaction." Why?

I think it's because most people are either moral or can define their own sense of what is moral. And he is viewed as amoral, if not immoral, not because of influence from "the left", but because those viewers are PEOPLE. That's because of HIS words and HIS actions. They -- we -- are stuck in a loop because HE is. He's accused of being morally deficient because nearly his entire history demonstrates that he is, not because of "the Democrats."

I'm odd in that I think this should be a cause for joy, that so many can coalesce to define and codify "moral", rather than a cry of pain because so many of his supporters cannot.

His supporters who cannot are blind to this because they themselves are amoral/immoral or careless/lazy/stupid (a small fraction, and I have constantly taken umbrage with those who paint all his supporters this way), or they feel abandoned by "the system" (more of them) or because they are using their vote as their last-dash fight-back tool at their own inability to achieve aspiration (more still) or to have their concerns heard (even more), or because he's actually helping them specifically (another small portion).

And they stay with cognitive dissonance -- they have eyes, ears and aren't made of stone, and are in basic agreement with a similar moral code as everyone else who doesn't support him -- because he's still President (the "still" part being a continual victory -- "winning every day" as it were) and because human beings are natural anchorers.

Your reaction to that is "all politicians are in a sense amoral or immoral, so he's an extension of that mold", which, by the way, also could extend to "all PEOPLE are in a sense amoral or immoral." Which maybe they are, but it's a matter of degree, a distinction I think you struggle with because you can't numericize the degree.

What you view as an overreaction I view as your misread of the human condition. That "overreaction" is in my book actually a cause for great hope. That's not meant to be a value judgment on you.
 
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FogBlueInSanFran said:
But there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of conservative Republicans appalled with him, including very prominent ones, including people on his very own staff. He has the lowest worldwide rating of any President ever, and its not close, so there are non-political cross-cultural currents leaning in the exact same direction as what you describe as an "overreaction."
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So trust in democracy and if what you say is true, he will lose the election.
 
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