The Labour Party

Again labours disceplinary proccess is showing why the long awaited reform need to be implemented quicker.

The investigation team and labour party itself recomended the harshest punisent, but under the present proccess is goes to the three person commitee to dish that out.

Kieth Vaz, who is no friend of the leadership decided, against the recomendations, he would be lenient as a snap GE could happen and Williamson would likely win the marginal, at least one other on that pannel agreed, and so doesn't fully implement the findings of the investigation

Stupid really, especially as, with most of these headline cases, it is timed at the worst posible time, the tories are a farce and this just shifts the negativity back onto labour

The proccess of report, investigate, suspend, further investigate, discipline/expel is too long and goes through too many people to be fully effective at times.

But with the brexit domimated climate, and the majority of those still supporting Labpur because of their policies and tory austerity, this wil not change much in opinions of the party, those already given up will stay that way, those fully behind jezza will stay that way, those that want the tories out and a labour government will stay that way, those anti leadership but want to stay and fight to get rid will stay that way.

Politics in this country is now fully entrenched in different ideologies, staunch blue, staunch red, sick of the pair and leave/remain seems the shenaegans of either party at top level are no longer affecting that.
 
Ban-jani said:
And it’s more sinister than that sadly.

Both parties are what happens when you give too much power to the fucking bigoted loons on the back benches, one way or another.
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And then make one of them the leader of your party.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I'd tend to disagree about the proportion of say - you have the Union influence which is much larger in number than momentum but momentum is nearer the core hence Mclusky regularly flexing Unite's muscle to remind them they are there. But the dichotomy is that you have staunch Labour MP's who find themselves in constituencies that voted Leave in 2016 some of which are showing less appetite for Leave as reality bites which makes their position very difficult too - none of them knows which way to jump. In many areas Corbyn is disliked because of the press assault on him which has brainwashed people into disliking him but not knowing why but thinking his policies in the last manifesto made sense for the working person. I'd suspect that by the time of the next GE Labour may well contest it on the same policies but with a different Leader. That should be the Tory fear - they put Corbyn up as the bogeyman NOT the policies - change the bogeyman and the "threat" has gone...........they would struggle to campaign then.
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Labour need to be very careful with union support, particularly when they are making noises about destroying the defence industry in particular which is heavily unionised.

Mcluskey was elected by less than 10% of Unite so he cannot ever claim to truly speak for members and their political sway.

The thing that will cost Labour any election is complacency, IE, assuming they will win votes such as the union vote when that is by no means a guarantee.

The key for Corbyn is how can he ever hope to attract the 40% who previously voted Conservative AND voted remain. Those are the kind of people that someone like Blair would win back, I am one of them but I can't vote for Corbyn.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I'd tend to disagree about the proportion of say - you have the Union influence which is much larger in number than momentum but momentum is nearer the core hence Mclusky regularly flexing Unite's muscle to remind them they are there. But the dichotomy is that you have staunch Labour MP's who find themselves in constituencies that voted Leave in 2016 some of which are showing less appetite for Leave as reality bites which makes their position very difficult too - none of them knows which way to jump. In many areas Corbyn is disliked because of the press assault on him which has brainwashed people into disliking him but not knowing why but thinking his policies in the last manifesto made sense for the working person. I'd suspect that by the time of the next GE Labour may well contest it on the same policies but with a different Leader. That should be the Tory fear - they put Corbyn up as the bogeyman NOT the policies - change the bogeyman and the "threat" has gone...........they would struggle to campaign then.
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Corbyn is safe, no one can budge him except himself.

The blairites were looking to challenge Corbyn to yet another leadership contest when Labour lost Peterborough, but, despite all the political noises off, Labour didn't lose. The party machine worked wonders in that constituency, they were canvasing members across the county to get their arses down there, including me and I live in Halifax!

It's important to keep in mind that there is so much disinformation about Labour, it's impossible to gauge exactly what's going on.

Tom Watson seems to make a remain speech everyday (which only the Guardian reports), who is in the audience for these speeches is never fleshed out. With boring monotony various blairites write the same piece in the Independent, the Guardian and the Statesman, all repeating how Labour must be at the forefront of a second referendum campaign and that the party's manifesto must be wholeheartedly remain, but nothing changes. According to the aforementioned publications, crunch Labour meetings take place all the time, where Corbyn is reportedly mauled by staunch remainers and yet everything stays the same. Polls are commissioned hourly purportedly showing that remain is Labour's only salvation and yet, and yet....Nothing happens.

It's quite something, Labour party discipline at the centre, with so many enemies within and without, is something to admire, though it might well end up being a double edged sword.

The behaviour of the two main parties couldn't be more different, while the Tories run around naked, on fire and shooting themselves in the foot and mouth. The truth about what is really going on in the Labour party (as opposed to the cacophonous noises off) lies in a locked box, buried deep in a unknown location.
 
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inbetween said:
Labour need to be very careful with union support, particularly when they are making noises about destroying the defence industry in particular which is heavily unionised.

Mcluskey was elected by less than 10% of Unite so he cannot ever claim to truly speak for members and their political sway.
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If 48 / 52% was a winning margin that means Brexiters verdict is speaking for the UK then McLuskey with a 10% margin can think the same regards Unite members.
 
inbetween said:
Labour need to be very careful with union support, particularly when they are making noises about destroying the defence industry in particular which is heavily unionised.

Mcluskey was elected by less than 10% of Unite so he cannot ever claim to truly speak for members and their political sway.

The thing that will cost Labour any election is complacency, IE, assuming they will win votes such as the union vote when that is by no means a guarantee.

The key for Corbyn is how can he ever hope to attract the 40% who previously voted Conservative AND voted remain. Those are the kind of people that someone like Blair would win back, I am one of them but I can't vote for Corbyn.
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It is those people alongside those that see themselves being center left - didn't hesitate to vote for Blair or Brown - voted for Miliband but with little enthusiasm and also voted remain. These people may have voted for Corbyn last time to help clip Mays wings but have been horrified with What Labour have become since Corbyn was elected. Labour will never win power until they win these people back and they wont do that with either Corbyn or a Leave stance, both have to change.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Corbyn is safe, no one can budge him except himself.

The blairites were looking to challenge Corbyn to yet another leadership contest when Labour lost Peterborough, but, despite all the political noises off, Labour didn't lose. The party machine worked wonders in that constituency, they were canvasing members across the county to get their arses down there, including me and I live in Halifax!

It's important to keep in mind that there is so much disinformation about Labour, it's impossible to gauge exactly what's going on.

Tom Watson seems to make a remain speech everyday (which only the Guardian reports), who is in the audience for these speeches is never fleshed out. With boring monotony various blairites write the same piece in the Independent, the Guardian and the Statesman, all repeating how Labour must be at the forefront of a second referendum campaign and that the party's manifesto must be wholeheartedly remain, but nothing changes. According to the aforementioned publications, crunch Labour meetings take place all the time, where Corbyn is reportedly mauled by staunch remainers and yet everything stays the same. Polls are commissioned hourly purportedly showing that remain is Labour's only salvation and yet, and yet....Nothing happens.

It's quite something, Labour party discipline at the centre, with so many enemies within and without, is something to admire, though it might well end up being a double edged sword.

The behaviour of the two main parties couldn't be more different, while the Tories run around naked, on fire and shooting themselves in the foot and mouth. The truth about what is really going on in the Labour party (as opposed to the cacophonous noises off) lies in a locked box, buried deep in a unknown location.
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I don't recognise this view at all. I am a former labour voter and i cant stand Corbyn, of the 10 or so people who i talk to around voting labour all have the same opinion. The only thing that changes is if they have or have not decided to vote for someone else and that is around 50:50 depending on what vote you are talking about. The EU election and Local Election results confirm this is where labour are at. They lost the last election and are going backwards against a failing government. Unreal.

Edit: For some additional context, labour won Peterborogh in 2017 with 22,950 votes. They retained it in 2019 with 10,484. The combined tory/bxp vote was 17,000.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
Corbyn is safe, no one can budge him except himself.

The blairites were looking to challenge Corbyn to yet another leadership contest when Labour lost Peterborough, but, despite all the political noises off, Labour didn't lose. The party machine worked wonders in that constituency, they were canvasing members across the county to get their arses down there, including me and I live in Halifax!

It's important to keep in mind that there is so much disinformation about Labour, it's impossible to gauge exactly what's going on.

Tom Watson seems to make a remain speech everyday (which only the Guardian reports), who is in the audience for these speeches is never fleshed out. With boring monotony various blairites write the same piece in the Independent, the Guardian and the Statesman, all repeating how Labour must be at the forefront of a second referendum campaign and that the party's manifesto must be wholeheartedly remain, but nothing changes. According to the aforementioned publications, crunch Labour meetings take place all the time, where Corbyn is reportedly mauled by staunch remainers and yet everything stays the same. Polls are commissioned hourly purportedly showing that remain is Labour's only salvation and yet, and yet....Nothing happens.

It's quite something, Labour party discipline at the centre, with so many enemies within and without, is something to admire, though it might well end up being a double edged sword.

The behaviour of the two main parties couldn't be more different, while the Tories run around naked, on fire and shooting themselves in the foot and mouth. The truth about what is really going on in the Labour party (as opposed to the cacophonous noises off) lies in a locked box, buried deep in a unknown location.
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I think the term “blairite” is a bit disingenuous really.

There are centrists who vote or have voted Labour that don’t particularly like Blair, not all of them support him or indeed would want him back.

The far left use it because they think the negative connotations around Blair as a word, will be useful to bully those they disagree with that support the party or are in the party.

I personally happen to think he was brilliant as PM but I know many centre ground or centre-left Labour voters who dislike both Corbyn and Blair.

Anyway, with regards to your point, Corbyn is far from safe. A poor showing at the next election, which is likely considering how far backwards they are going, will mean he’s gone. The cult of Corbyn is becoming an ever increasingly smaller circle and I’ve just spoken to a colleague today who’s confirmed that as a Labour member, and one in which as been very vocally supporting of Corbyn for the 2 years I’ve worked with him, he’ll now be voting someone else at the next leadership contest, as he’s lost all faith.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Corbyn is safe, no one can budge him except himself.

The blairites were looking to challenge Corbyn to yet another leadership contest when Labour lost Peterborough, but, despite all the political noises off, Labour didn't lose. The party machine worked wonders in that constituency, they were canvasing members across the county to get their arses down there, including me and I live in Halifax!

It's important to keep in mind that there is so much disinformation about Labour, it's impossible to gauge exactly what's going on.

Tom Watson seems to make a remain speech everyday (which only the Guardian reports), who is in the audience for these speeches is never fleshed out. With boring monotony various blairites write the same piece in the Independent, the Guardian and the Statesman, all repeating how Labour must be at the forefront of a second referendum campaign and that the party's manifesto must be wholeheartedly remain, but nothing changes. According to the aforementioned publications, crunch Labour meetings take place all the time, where Corbyn is reportedly mauled by staunch remainers and yet everything stays the same. Polls are commissioned hourly purportedly showing that remain is Labour's only salvation and yet, and yet....Nothing happens.

It's quite something, Labour party discipline at the centre, with so many enemies within and without, is something to admire, though it might well end up being a double edged sword.

The behaviour of the two main parties couldn't be more different, while the Tories run around naked, on fire and shooting themselves in the foot and mouth. The truth about what is really going on in the Labour party (as opposed to the cacophonous noises off) lies in a locked box, buried deep in a unknown location.
Click to expand...

Diane Abbott tweeted today that she was concerned about Labour’s position on Brexit and McDonnell is pushing hard for a Remain position. The members are predominantly Remain as are around two thirds of Labour voters. It is starting to look as if Corbyn is increasingly isolated on the issue so it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next month.
 
Gaudion M said:
I don't recognise this view at all. I am a former labour voter and i cant stand Corbyn, of the 10 or so people who i talk to around voting labour all have the same opinion. The only thing that changes is if they have or have not decided to vote for someone else and that is around 50:50 depending on what vote you are talking about. The EU election and Local Election results confirm this is where labour are at. They lost the last election and are going backwards against a failing government. Unreal.
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What you fail to recognise is the substance of my post.

I'm laying in to you because your crock is typical of the nonsense posted in here. I'm not talking about Labour supporters, I'm talking about the Labour party. Whether what Corbyn is doing might or might not appeal to the wider electorate at a general election is another topic entirely.

It must be fun to have the time to splurge anecdotal evidence to substantiate a counter argument to a point I wasn't making.
 
BobKowalski said:
Diane Abbott tweeted today that she was concerned about Labour’s position on Brexit and McDonnell is pushing hard for a Remain position. The members are predominantly Remain as are around two thirds of Labour voters. It is starting to look as if Corbyn is increasingly isolated on the issue so it will be interesting to see how it develops over the next month.
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Labour has shifted it's position but it has gone under reported. One way or another Labour is committed to putting a Brexit deal to a referendum, what Corbyn won't do is go all guns blazing for referendum now, so you won't see him on a peoples vote platform, nor will he commit the next Labour party manifesto to remain.

Corbyn has turned 70, I've no idea what his plans are, I'm of the opinion that he'll move eventually towards remain, or he'll step aside for someone he approves of to advocate it.

It really is a mystery, it is a testimony to how tight lipped the centre is that it's all guesswork.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Labour has shifted it's position but it has gone under reported. One way or another Labour is committed to putting a Brexit deal to a referendum, what Corbyn won't do is go all guns blazing for referendum now, so you won't see him on a peoples vote platform, nor will he commit the next Labour party manifesto to remain.

Corbyn has turned 70, I've no idea what his plans are, I'm of the opinion that he'll move eventually towards remain, or he'll step aside for someone he approves of to advocate it.

It really is a mystery, it is a testimony to how tight lipped the centre is that it's all guesswork.
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isn't that part of the problem tho? keeping everyone guessing rather than being unequivocal isn't helping at all, and prompting former Labour voters such as myself to go elsewhere as in the europeans.
 
The perfect fumble said:
What you fail to recognise is the substance of my post.

I'm laying in to you because your crock is typical of the nonsense posted in here. I'm not talking about Labour supporters, I'm talking about the Labour party. Whether what Corbyn is doing might or might not appeal to the wider electorate at a general election is another topic entirely.

It must be fun to have the time to splurge anecdotal evidence to substantiate a counter argument to a point I wasn't making.
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The substance of your post was that everything was rosy in the labour party. This is plainly not true. Labour has massive problems on two fronts that will cripple it as an electoral force. 1 is the remain stance that 80% of the activists object to and 2 is antisemitism which is well and truly alive within elements of the hard left and which the current leadership have demonstrated they are completely unable or unwilling to deal with.

You chose to ignore 1 and 2 and you consider Corbyns ability to ignore them a virtue, fine carry on. From the outside looking in you appear ridiculous.
 
Gaudion M said:
The substance of your post was that everything was rosy in the labour party. This is plainly not true. Labour has massive problems on two fronts that will cripple it as an electoral force. 1 is the remain stance that 80% of the activists object to and 2 is antisemitism which is well and truly alive within elements of the hard left and which the current leadership have demonstrated they are completely unable or unwilling to deal with.

You chose to ignore 1 and 2 and you consider Corbyns ability to ignore them a virtue, fine carry on. From the outside looking in you appear ridiculous.
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This is idiotic. It's just a variation on Corbyn is a ****.

My post was devoted to the tight lipped centre, and the blairites attempt to get it to move on Brexit. BobKowalski mentioned Abbott and McDonnell, who are not blairites and I responded to that.

All you're doing is talking to yourself.
 
joe123 said:
isn't that part of the problem tho? keeping everyone guessing rather than being unequivocal isn't helping at all, and prompting former Labour voters such as myself to go elsewhere as in the europeans.
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It is part of the problem, Labour's Brexit policy is more a result of the on going tensions in the party, that have bedevilled it since Corbyn's election, as it does with the correct strategic decision it should take on Brexit.

Every time Watson opens his mouth he puts another nail in the coffin for remain.
 
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The perfect fumble said:
It is part of the problem, Labour's Brexit policy is more a result of the on going tensions in the party, that have bedevilled it since Corbyn's election, as it does with the correct strategic decision it should take on Brexit.

Every time Watson opens his mouth he puts another nail in the coffin for remain.
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I've no idea how that works. Labour MP speaks up for Remain and it's a nail in the coffin for Remain. Isn't the corollary that if no Labour MP speaks up for Remain then all of a sudden Corbyn will convert to Remain?
 
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