Another new Brexit thread

[west didsblue]

What happened to democracy at the last vote. It's more to do with disgraceful MPs accepting then renegading on that promise. Democracy needs politicians as much as the public to do what there paid to do. I see both sides but I for one will no longer vote in an institution that is not democratic

I don't believe we were let down by Parliament. We were let down by the government and electoral commission who agreed a referendum question where only one answer could actually be delivered. The other answer, the one we got, was always vague and consequently undeliverable; it has never been possible to "just leave". Even a No Deal Brexit would very quickly need some agreements to be put in place to manage the transition and protect the integrity of the GFA in Ireland, otherwise we would be reneging on international agreements and breaking international law.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Only if we're able to agree on what the options should be!

Simple - its a 2 stage approach.

Ref #1 - question is do we become a Marxist dictatorship or a Hard Right dictatorship?

once we choose from that frankly the rest of this shit takes care of itself ........... the chaos and division that would follow would make Brexit in or out a simple 2 second decision for everybody.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I don't believe we were let down by Parliament. We were let down by the government and electoral commission who agreed a referendum question where only one answer could actually be delivered. The other answer, the one we got, was always vague and consequently undeliverable; it has never been possible to "just leave". Even a No Deal Brexit would very quickly need some agreements to be put in place to manage the transition and protect the integrity of the GFA in Ireland, otherwise we would be reneging on international agreements and breaking international law.

what you are describing there is a Right leaning establishment from the Govt through the electoral commission who embarked on the referendum in a cack handed binary sort of way solely to save the Conservative Party - not sort out the country. It was assumed Dave could get a win and put the Leavers in the Tory party back in their ERG box and crack on with selling the NHS and getting tax cuts through Parliament. Nobody ever considered Dave couldn't deliver and as I say it was all about the Tory Party not the country.

 

[Ban-jani]

what you are describing there is a Right leaning establishment from the Govt through the electoral commission who embarked on the referendum in a cack handed binary sort of way solely to save the Conservative Party - not sort out the country. It was assumed Dave could get a win and put the Leavers in the Tory party back in their ERG box and crack on with selling the NHS and getting tax cuts through Parliament. Nobody ever considered Dave couldn't deliver and as I say it was all about the Tory Party not the country.

Bingo

 

[BlueHammer85]

bloody hell, i was about 200 pages behind trying to catch up. oh well.

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged the next PM to put their Brexit deal or a no deal exit to a second referendum, saying Labour would campaign for Remain in those scenarios.

 

[Ban-jani]

bloody hell, i was about 200 pages behind trying to catch up. oh well.

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged the next PM to put their Brexit deal or a no deal exit to a second referendum, saying Labour would campaign for Remain in those scenarios.

About time!

 

[blueinsa]

bloody hell, i was about 200 pages behind trying to catch up. oh well.

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged the next PM to put their Brexit deal or a no deal exit to a second referendum, saying Labour would campaign for Remain in those scenarios.

Trouble is Parliament will not agree to or pass a no deal brexit so his challenge is meaningless as his party will never agree to it if in power and voted for.

This is the issue with brexit and our politicians.....they are all bare faced fucking liars.

 

[Rascal]

Dear Rascal,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories' Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit – or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the few.



Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party

 

[blue61]

I don't believe we were let down by Parliament. We were let down by the government and electoral commission who agreed a referendum question where only one answer could actually be delivered. The other answer, the one we got, was always vague and consequently undeliverable; it has never been possible to "just leave". Even a No Deal Brexit would very quickly need some agreements to be put in place to manage the transition and protect the integrity of the GFA in Ireland, otherwise we would be reneging on international agreements and breaking international law.

Of course Parliament let the country down, they had a mandate to leave which they agreed too by a large majority.

What happened was that the government thought they would win a large majority through a General Election and that backfired in a big way. The other parties and some of their own grasped the opportunity to block any proposals from any side to have a deal to appease their own agendas given the lack of majority, the EU played hardball seeing the state of Parliament which has created mess we are in now.

Even if we have another vote who can honestly trust the politicians to make it work whichever party is in power. There will be huge consequences if we leave or stay. Leave will jump into the unknown with a set of incompetent MPs and Stay we will well and truly be the dog having its tail wagged by the EU

 

[west didsblue]

Of course Parliament let the country down, they had a mandate to leave which they agreed too by a large majority.

What happened was that the government thought they would win a large majority through a General Election and that backfired in a big way. The other parties and some of their own grasped the opportunity to block any proposals from any side to have a deal to appease their own agendas given the lack of majority, the EU played hardball seeing the state of Parliament which has created mess we are in now.

Even if we have another vote who can honestly trust the politicians to make it work whichever party is in power. There will be huge consequences if we leave or stay. Leave will jump into the unknown with a set of incompetent MPs and Stay we will well and truly be the dog having its tail wagged by the EU

I agree with the part about the 2017 election. However the blame for this fiasco lies squarely with the government who bypassed Parliament for the best part of two years between invoking A50 and agreeing a deal with the EU. There should have been discussion with Parliament about what would be acceptable before going off and agreeing something with the EU. Parliament has just been doing its job for the last 8 months.

 

[BobKowalski]

Agree completely that the electorate has been let down badly by parliament who if they never had any intentions of pushing brexit through and i dont believe they genuinely ever had, shouldn't have agreed to the ref or its question in the first place.

Can’t argue with that one. You can’t contract out 40 years of industrial and foreign policy to the public in the form of a binary one off vote and having done zero work to prepare for one of the options on the ballot. Our media and political class showed at that point they were not fit for purpose.

The price we will pay is likely to be a heavy one. Attacks on institutions be it the judiciary, civil service and Parliamentary sovereignty under the guise ‘the will of the people’ never end well especially for ‘the people’.

The inevitable breakup of our own Union is also something I regret. It seems we hold little regard for our own history. All of which I guess makes me a small ‘c’ conservative or at the very least a sentimentalist. In our brave new Brexit world there seems to be no room for sentiment.

 

[blueinsa]

Can’t argue with that one. You can’t contract out 40 years of industrial and foreign policy to the public in the form of a binary one off vote and having done zero work to prepare for one of the options on the ballot. Our media and political class showed at that point they were not fit for purpose.

The price we will pay is likely to be a heavy one. Attacks on institutions be it the judiciary, civil service and Parliamentary sovereignty under the guise ‘the will of the people’ never end well especially for ‘the people’.

The inevitable breakup of our own Union is also something I regret. It seems we hold little regard for our own history. All of which I guess makes me a small ‘c’ conservative or at the very least a sentimentalist. In our brave new Brexit world there seems to be no room for sentiment.

My biggest disagreement with you Bob in on the break up if the UK.

That is gong to happen regardless of brexit and is being led and championed by a real nationalist party who perversely argue against brexit yet demand their own exit.

To not like the EU and want to break free of it politically is apparently bonkers and wrong yet to not like the Tories and to want to break free of Westminster and as many of them see it, English rule is absolutely the right thing to do?

I honestly will not take any lessons on brexit from the SNP.

 

[Ban-jani]

My biggest disagreement with you Bob in on the break up if the UK.

That is gong to happen regardless of brexit and is being led and championed by a real nationalist party who perversely argue against brexit yet demand their own exit.

To not like the EU and want to break free of it politically is apparently bonkers and wrong yet to not like the Tories and to want to break free of Westminster and as many of them see it, English rule is absolutely the right thing to do?

I honestly will not take any lessons on brexit from the SNP.

You’re right, Scottish Independence is absolutely daft.

People have to be consistent across both that and Brexit.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Only if we're able to agree on what the options should be!

Leave or remain. There is no middle ground on this.

 

[blueinsa]

I agree with the part about the 2017 election. However the blame for this fiasco lies squarely with the government who bypassed Parliament for the best part of two years between invoking A50 and agreeing a deal with the EU. There should have been discussion with Parliament about what would be acceptable before going off and agreeing something with the EU. Parliament has just been doing its job for the last 8 months.

Labour or the Lib Dems in government would have done the exact same thing and not given a shit what the opposition thought or wanted.

Its unfair to blame the Tories for doing what government in power does.

 

[lancs blue]

The inevitable breakup of our own Union is also something I regret. It seems we hold little regard for our own history. All of which I guess makes me a small ‘c’ conservative or at the very least a sentimentalist. In our brave new Brexit world there seems to be no room for sentiment.

I see it as a Union originally created by a mix of English force majeure and corruption, so even though I would favour its retention as a modern political union I'm not sure there's much to be sentimental about.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Leave with a deal, leave with no deal, status quo and full integration with the EU.

Effectively 2 options for both sides to plump for.

This is BS. There is only one remain option which is the EU as it currently is. We either remain on our current deal or we dont. There is no 'full integration' to decide on. You're just projecting the issues of leave on to remain.

Remain is a simple concept and 100% deliverable with zero issues.

Leaving is a mass of technical problems with a miriad of options/solutions none of which produce a fully satisfactory outcome.

 

[west didsblue]

Labour or the Lib Dems in government would have done the exact same thing and not given a shit what the opposition thought or wanted.

Its unfair to blame the Tories for doing what government in power does.

It's not the Tories in general I'm blaming, it's the government (May and her team of ministers). Even if they did enough just to get the support of their own MPs, Brexit would be done. Instead she did exactly what she would have done had she increased her majority in 2017. Following that election where the Tories lost seats, it was clear that the government needed cross party support to get Brexit over the line. They didn't even try and just presented their deal as a fait accompli and tried to bulldoze it through parliament.

 

[west didsblue]

My biggest disagreement with you Bob in on the break up if the UK.

That is gong to happen regardless of brexit and is being led and championed by a real nationalist party who perversely argue against brexit yet demand their own exit.

To not like the EU and want to break free of it politically is apparently bonkers and wrong yet to not like the Tories and to want to break free of Westminster and as many of them see it, English rule is absolutely the right thing to do?

I honestly will not take any lessons on brexit from the SNP.

Disagree with the inevitable break up. The indyref was 55:45 in favour of remain, a much bigger majority than Brexit. The SNP are in power for Scottish domestic reasons not because a majority wants independence.

 

[BobKowalski]

My biggest disagreement with you Bob in on the break up if the UK.

That is gong to happen regardless of brexit and is being led and championed by a real nationalist party who perversely argue against brexit yet demand their own exit.

To not like the EU and want to break free of it politically is apparently bonkers and wrong yet to not like the Tories and to want to break free of Westminster and as many of them see it, English rule is absolutely the right thing to do?

I honestly will not take any lessons on brexit from the SNP.

The SNP may champion it but the last referendum rejected it and if we had kept to our promises made during that referendum and were not visiting the prospect of leaving the EU against the wish of the population of Scotland and showing a staggering amount of incompetence in the process of leaving there is every likelihood that a break up would not have happened.

The same is true of NI where the current status quo works as it gives enough to everyone. Still in the Union but close ties to the Republic. Unionists can still feel part of the Union and nationalists in the absence of a border can feel what’s it like to be part of the Republic. It ain’t what everyone ideally wants but it’s enough.

Brexit threatens all of this. It threatens Scotland’s place by pushing the population into the independence camp and away from the current status quo. It threatens NI by pushing soft nationalist opinion into uniting with the Republic and by visiting a border either on land or down the Irish Sea. And if Scotland goes what price Wales?

So no Brexit doesn’t get a pass. For those advocating it, wanting it or voting for it they don’t get a pass either. You take responsibility for your actions and your votes. You guys want English nationalism then the price is the end of the United Kingdom and British patriotism.

Own your choice.