Another new Brexit thread

[blueinsa]

We're obviously not going to agree so I'll leave it there.

Good to have a discussion that hasn't gone the way of previous discussions on other threads!

I think what we all have to do here is focus on the next few months and not what has gone on in the past 3 years.

The ref has been and gone, no one is changing anything but what do we do next?

 

[Vic]

You're missing the point that the referendum was only ever advisory. Afterwards both parties committed to deliver it but the referendum itself was advisory. The government has failed to deliver, but it would not be anti-democratic to not follow an advisory vote, especially after three years of attempting to come up with an equitable way of leaving.
Also, had it been a binding vote, the courts would have overturned it due to irregularities. The only reason they didn't was because it was advisory.

It was advisory but most parties said they'd abide by the result (no point saying that if it was binding).

I'm of the view that the 2017 GE result was at least in part down to Remain voters seeing Labour as the most likely to get either a less damaging Brexit (staying in single market and customs union) or possibly even not leaving.

 

[BobKowalski]

The flip side to that is in a UK vote, you accept the overall result and dont start crying after when it doesnt go your way.

Its nationalists doing that, not unionists and im not going to give an inch to them over it and nor should anyone else imo.

No it’s not ‘nationalists’. It’s a majority of Scots and the Irish. All you are saying is ‘this is what the English want so suck it up sunshine’. This is a conscious choice by Brexit supporters. You want Brexit then say goodbye to the Union. You want Brexit then it’s a land border in Ireland or a sea border. So do you want nationalist trouble or Unionist trouble? Pick a border. Do you guys want ‘no deal’ or you want good relations with Europe and especially Ireland? Pick one.

Every Brexit decision has knock on consequences not just inside the U.K. but outside the U.K. You want it then you own the consequences. And banging on about a vote over three years ago when none of this shit got spelled out or even acknowledged isn’t going to cut it anymore.

 

[Vic]

...

To not like the EU and want to break free of it politically is apparently bonkers and wrong yet to not like the Tories and to want to break free of Westminster and as many of them see it, English rule is absolutely the right thing to do?

I honestly will not take any lessons on brexit from the SNP.

It makes perfect sense if the EU is good for you (take the economic benefit even if you don't like the political aspect) but the Tories are bad for you. The collapse of the Tory party might well kill off Scottish Independence.

 

[Ban-jani]

They don’t have the balls to revoke.

No they don’t, you’re correct.

But then again I think Johnson will bottle no deal.

 

[blueinsa]

It’s a majority of Scots and the Irish.

Of which political persuasion Bob?

I dont see many unionists in either country supporting your argument here im afraid.

Again we voted as the UK, not as individual countries or regions.

You accept the democratic result unless of course you have a nationalist agenda and argument which is the point im making and saying we shouldn't pander to and as someone i know who hates nationalism i would have thought you would agree?

 

[Ban-jani]

It was advisory but most parties said they'd abide by the result (no point saying that if it was binding).

I'm of the view that the 2017 GE result was at least in part down to Remain voters seeing Labour as the most likely to get either a less damaging Brexit (staying in single market and customs union) or possibly even not leaving.

That’s a very good point I hadn’t previously considered.

 

[smudgedj]

No they don’t, you’re correct.

But then again I think Johnson will bottle no deal.

Doubt it.
This is the last throw of the dice for them. The Tories will need to leave on 31st October, No matter what. If they don’t its all over for them, otherwise their voters and members will desert to another party. The government would fall, and an election called, where they would be destroyed.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

The concept that 'democracy' requires a decision to be followed to the end, and that it cannot be overridden by further democratic action, does not meet my concept of democracy.

My understanding is that our democracy has Parliament supreme. Parliament can do what they wish within the law, change their mind or whatever, and face the consequences of it from the electorate afterwards. Taking control, as it were.

 

[Ban-jani]

Doubt it.
This is the last throw of the dice for them. The Tories will need to leave on 31st October, No matter what. If they don’t its all over for them, otherwise their voters and members will desert to another party. The government would fall, and an election called, where they would be destroyed.

MP’s are manoeuvring to take it away from them as we speak. Johnson will no that no deal doesn’t solve the Irish border issue or the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, which will still be the EU’s position when we do eventually go back to them, from a weaker position.

We’re close to just revoking than no deal and I don’t think they have the balls for either.

It’ll be another referendum or a General Election, to give Johnson time.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Doubt it.
This is the last throw of the dice for them. The Tories will need to leave on 31st October, No matter what. If they don’t its all over for them, otherwise their voters and members will desert to another party. The government would fall, and an election called, where they would be destroyed.

We may leave on the 31st October but I cannot see being under a 'no-deal'. The quickest and easiest way out is passing the WA, which with a couple of cosmetic tweaks, I think they will

 

[west didsblue]

I think what we all have to do here is focus on the next few months and not what has gone on in the past 3 years.

The ref has been and gone, no one is changing anything but what do we do next?

I think that whatever we do will need a public vote as whatever version of Brexit we end up with will not be what many Leavers were expecting or what they think they voted for.

 

[blueinsa]

The concept that 'democracy' requires a decision to be followed to the end, and that it cannot be overridden by further democratic action, does not meet my concept of democracy.

My understanding is that our democracy has Parliament supreme. Parliament can do what they wish within the law, change their mind or whatever, and face the consequences of it from the electorate afterwards. Taking control, as it were.

This isn't a policy that after discussion gets binned off, its the result of a democratic vote, the largest we have ever had in this country and one that parliament promised the electorate they would respect and enact.

If you think refusing to accept votes from now on because you dont like the result then say that. Its an opinion, not one i can ever agree with but its better than trying to tell us that democracy is in action here if we dont leave as per the result.

Parliament can do what they want you are spot on.

So too can the electorate at the next GE.

That is the conundrum for politicians who know to not leave will be political suicide for a large majority of them.

 

[blueinsa]

I think that whatever we do will need a public vote as whatever version of Brexit we end up with will not be what many Leavers were expecting or what they think they voted for.

Yeah I'm now very much in favour of a second vote although i can guarantee we wont agree on what should be on the ballot paper ;-)

 

[BobKowalski]

Of which political persuasion Bob?

I dont see many unionists in either country supporting your argument here im afraid.

Again we voted as the UK, not as individual countries or regions.

You accept the democratic result unless of course you have a nationalist agenda and argument which is the point im making and saying we shouldn't pander to and as someone i know who hates nationalism i would have thought you would agree?

A majority of Scotland and NI voted to stay in the EU. Overriding their vote or their views will not bring you Brexit. NI has the only land border with the EU. Ignoring the fact that we will need a land or sea border if we opt out of the CU and SM will not bring you Brexit. Ignoring things or refusing to accept facts or pretending if we just believe hard enough all these inconvenient realities will melt away is why we are still in the EU and why we will still be in the EU after 31st Oct.

And it’s not binary. We can accept the outcome of the referendum, given it’s an objective fact, and still accept the realities and complexities in prosecuting the outcome of the referendum. They are two different things and the latter does impact on the former and minds will be changed once the realities and complexities are known.

We also have to accept that Brexit is not a hermetically sealed process. It directly involves 27 other countries and indirectly involves other countries with which we have trading arrangements via the EU. All of these countries have an interest in the outcome and act to protect or even enhance their interests in the Brexit process. Brexit is as much a foreign policy decision as a trade decision and like it or not other countries are going to shape the Brexit we finally get. Brexiteers voted to take back control. In reality Brexiteers voted to give control to the EU and others outside the EU. We have even given Trump license to humiliate our Govt on a seemingly regular basis. The more we clasp onto him in desperation for that mythical U.K./US trade deal the more he drains our self respect.

 

[blueinsa]

A majority of Scotland and NI voted to stay in the EU.

So what?

A majority voted to remain in Vauxhall in London but that doesnt mean they get to remain.

We held a national/UK vote, not one by country that had to have all four nations agreeing or one by region with the option of remaining.

What is the point in continually arguing these points Bob?

The ref has come and gone and what matters now is the next few months up to the end of October and then what happens after that.

 

[dave_blue12]

This isn't a policy that after discussion gets binned off, its the result of a democratic vote, the largest we have ever had in this country and one that parliament promised the electorate they would respect and enact.

If you think refusing to accept votes from now on because you dont like the result then say that. Its an opinion, not one i can ever agree with but its better than trying to tell us that democracy is in action here if we dont leave as per the result.

Parliament can do what they want you are spot on.

So too can the electorate at the next GE.

That is the conundrum for politicians who know to not leave will be political suicide for a large majority of them.

Firstly I take issue with the largest vote in UK history. It wasn't and constant repetition by those of the Brexit persuasion won't make it so.

Parliament's first duty is the the well being and prosperity of the country. If they believe that leaving the EU to be a disastrous step for the country they should not take it and make their argument for their action. They will then face any potential fallout at the next GE.

If however they don't follow their conscience and allow Brexit to go ahead and their misgivings are well founded they will without doubt face the wrath of the electorate.

Potentially damned if they do and damned if they don't. They should follow what they believe.

 

[blueinsa]

Firstly I take issue with the largest vote in UK history. It wasn't and constant repetition by those of the Brexit persuasion won't make it so.

Parliament's first duty is the the well being and prosperity of the country. If they believe that leaving the EU to be a disastrous step for the country they should not take it and make their argument for their action. They will then face any potential fallout at the next GE.

If however they don't follow their conscience and allow Brexit to go ahead and their misgivings are well founded they will without doubt face the wrath of the electorate.

Potentially damned if they do and damned if they don't. They should follow what they believe.

Its the biggest single mandate and one of the biggest votes we have ever had ;-)

The rest of your post i agree with in so much they are damned if they do and damned of they dont.

Either option is going to lead to plenty of them looking for new jobs at the next GE.

 

[smudgedj]

MP’s are manoeuvring to take it away from them as we speak. Johnson will no that no deal doesn’t solve the Irish border issue or the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, which will still be the EU’s position when we do eventually go back to them, from a weaker position.

We’re close to just revoking than no deal and I don’t think they have the balls for either.

It’ll be another referendum or a General Election, to give Johnson time.

They can manoeuvre all they like; However EU law continues to be supreme to UK law, and the Eu says that we leave on 31st.

 

[BobKowalski]

So what?

...

And that is why either Brexit will be lost or the Union will be lost. Scotland and NI dismissed as ‘so what’.

It wasn’t enough to win a narrow referendum. Brexiteers had to bring the country and our Union with them. Brexit had to lead to somewhere and it had to be positive. Brexiteers failed to provide that leadership or the positive vision needed to bring people with them. Imposing an unwanted decision on a country which has the agency to secede from that decision will end in secession.