Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

I've done the research and I think it's inconsistent. (Which would be inevitable first - full integration or collapse?)



You made an assertion that you cannot sustain with any source.


And where do we go if we cannot agree a baseline that matches your personal opinion?

Sigh - it's not difficult

1. If we are going to Remain - then there is no point being half-arsed about it - we would be better off seeking to be at the centre and be involved in the direction of integration - because integration is going to happen anyway

So...………...If we are going to Remain - get on with the integration

2. the EU model will undoubtedly fail - just a question of when not if - IMO - and if we Remain we will only ever get further involved in integration anyway - whether we embrace it or not - so the impact will only ever get more severe

So...…. I want us out as soon as..... But that appears to have been shafted

It really is consistent

 

[blueinsa]

You think we should stop calling out the issue of anti-semitism in the Labour Party? Or Islamaphobia in the Tory Party? Or the Govt mandated ‘hostile environment’ when it comes to immigration which has caused much misery and injustice? You think we shouldn’t point out the racism inherent in Farage or the Brexit Party? You think the Trump Adminsitration should be given a pass for locking toddlers in cages and in squalid conditions causing suffering and death? You think silencing the rhetoric is the answer rather than calling out the people causing the misery and their supporters enabling them?

An interesting take.

No im saying we should stop with the personal stuff directed at each other on here when its done for no other reason than to point score and cause argument.

Perfectly possible to discuss any issue without making it personal.

 

[mcfc1632]

The WA negotiated by the U.K. Govt is a legal mechanism to leave the EU with a minimum of disruption. It was in effect the Leave Campaign mandated position. That no one likes the reality of what leaving the EU entails is unfortunate but what can you do. Life’s a bitch and all that.

So you made a post that had nothing to do with answering the question?

Why reply to my post then?

 

[blueinsa]

The WA negotiated by the U.K. Govt is a legal mechanism to leave the EU with a minimum of disruption. It was in effect the Leave Campaign mandated position. That no one likes the reality of what leaving the EU entails is unfortunate but what can you do. Life’s a bitch and all that.

So you keep saying but the WA passes easily without the backstop which not only leave voters refuse to accept, so to do remainers.

As you will not accept anything negotiated by Boris in the coming months as speaking for the UK government or yourself, neither do plenty of us both remain and leave accept the backstop as negotiated by May.

Its why she lost her job.

 

[BobKowalski]

No im saying we should stop with the personal stuff directed at each other on here when its done for no other reason than to point score and cause argument.

Perfectly possible to discuss any issue without making it personal.

Agreed but the point remains people on here are inconsistent with what they do, and do not, call out. So is pointing out the inconsistency ‘making it personal’? Labour/anti-semitism. Frothing outrage. Farage/Brexit. Crickets or the ‘snowflake’ jibe.

I’m old enough to remember everyone getting upset at me pointing out the racist themes on Leave Campaign Posters. I was the subject of the attacks not the racist themed Leave Posters which, miraculously, no one on here who voted leave had seen or were aware of.

I’m old enough to remember being accused of ‘anti-semitism’ - so ok it was only three days ago - is that not making it ‘personal’? Thing is I didn’t bitch about it. They were wrong and it got sorted without any drama but sometimes an accusation can be correct or my comments may be misinterpreted or I was just plain wrong. I did make a post months ago which could have been interpreted as supporting Corbyn on the anti-semitism issue. It was a post I made without thinking it through properly. It was poor and whilst no one crapped on me or the post I could have had no complaints if they did.

We shouldn’t make it personal but we should be challenged. Our thinking should be challenged, our views should be challenged and sometimes that challenge will be ‘robust’.

It’s a difficult line to tread between making it personal and ‘challenging’, but if we all accept that we are trying to tread that line and that sometimes we will fail and be understanding of that failure then this part of the forum can work.

 

[BobKowalski]

So you made a post that had nothing to do with answering the question?

Why reply to my post then?

For the lols.

 

[BobKowalski]

So you keep saying but the WA passes easily without the backstop which not only leave voters refuse to accept, so to do remainers.

As you will not accept anything negotiated by Boris in the coming months as speaking for the UK government or yourself, neither do plenty of us both remain and leave accept the backstop as negotiated by May.

Its why she lost her job.

The backstop is the price for the WA. It’s the price Dublin wants for agreeing to the WA. It’s the price Dublin will demand for any future trade/relationship deal. You want a legal mechanism to leave the EU? Then the price is the backstop. Don’t want the backstop and still leave the EU? Then the U.K. signs up to the SM and CU Norway style or Swiss style. There is a price to pay for leaving the EU. Either pay it or stay. Our choice. Our problem is that we can’t accept this and three years on and it’s still having our cake and chowing down on it time.

Which is why we will elect Johnson.

 

[west didsblue]

The backstop is the price for the WA. It’s the price Dublin wants for agreeing to the WA. It’s the price Dublin will demand for any future trade/relationship deal. You want a legal mechanism to leave the EU? Then the price is the backstop. Don’t want the backstop and still leave the EU? Then the U.K. signs up to the SM and CU Norway style or Swiss style. There is a price to pay for leaving the EU. Either pay it or stay. Our choice. Our problem is that we can’t accept this and three years on and it’s still having our cake and chowing down on it time.

Which is why we will elect Johnson.

Yep, it’s as simple as that. Apart from Switzerland and Norway aren’t in the CU, so it would need to be a combination of Norway and Turkey.

 

[Vic]

Sigh - it's not difficult

1. If we are going to Remain - then there is no point being half-arsed about it - we would be better off seeking to be at the centre and be involved in the direction of integration - because integration is going to happen anyway

So...………...If we are going to Remain - get on with the integration

2. the EU model will undoubtedly fail - just a question of when not if - IMO - and if we Remain we will only ever get further involved in integration anyway - whether we embrace it or not - so the impact will only ever get more severe

So...…. I want us out as soon as..... But that appears to have been shafted

It really is consistent

Sorry but (1) says we'd be better off being at the centre of something inevitable while (2) says that will make the impact of its inevitable failure more severe, the only difference being that it would be more our fault having been at the centre of it.

I can see that if failure of the EU is inevitable we'd be (maybe) better off out of it, but I struggle with why you'd want us to accelerate our (inevitable) full integration. If it's going to collapse would it not be better if we were not in the Eurozone when it happened?

I know this is really about offering a Remain option in a referendum less palatable than just the status quo but Leavers still have to decide which sort of Leave would be on the ballot.

 

[blueinsa]

The backstop is the price for the WA. It’s the price Dublin wants for agreeing to the WA. It’s the price Dublin will demand for any future trade/relationship deal. You want a legal mechanism to leave the EU? Then the price is the backstop. Don’t want the backstop and still leave the EU? Then the U.K. signs up to the SM and CU Norway style or Swiss style. There is a price to pay for leaving the EU. Either pay it or stay. Our choice. Our problem is that we can’t accept this and three years on and it’s still having our cake and chowing down on it time.

Which is why we will elect Johnson.

Or the UK leaves with a no deal, one possibly enforced by the EU and all bets are off.

Its all good and well repeating whats acceptable to Dublin and Brussels but there is another player here.

 

[hgblue]

Or the UK leaves with a no deal, one possibly enforced by the EU and all bets are off.

Its all good and well repeating whats acceptable to Dublin and Brussels but there is another player here.

I agree, but do you think no deal is deliverable with this Parliament?

 

[blueinsa]

I agree, but do you think no deal is deliverable with this Parliament?

Absolutely not.

No deal will only come about if the EU says enough is enough imo or Boris carries through on his threat but i cant see how he does that and i wouldn't want him to either as its yet another dagger into our domestic politics and democracy.

I still think a deal will be done, maybe not in time for the 31st Oct but nonetheless, a deal will be done.

 

[Vic]

The backstop is the price for the WA. It’s the price Dublin wants for agreeing to the WA. It’s the price Dublin will demand for any future trade/relationship deal. You want a legal mechanism to leave the EU? Then the price is the backstop. Don’t want the backstop and still leave the EU? Then the U.K. signs up to the SM and CU Norway style or Swiss style. There is a price to pay for leaving the EU. Either pay it or stay. Our choice. Our problem is that we can’t accept this and three years on and it’s still having our cake and chowing down on it time.

Which is why we will elect Johnson.

What do you mean "we"?

 

[hgblue]

Absolutely not.

No deal will only come about if the EU says enough is enough imo or Boris carries through on his threat but i cant see how he does that and i wouldn't want him to either as its yet another dagger into our domestic politics and democracy.

I still think a deal will be done, maybe not in time for the 31st Oct but nonetheless, a deal will be done.

If I were Boris I’d be speaking to the 30 or so Labour MPs who are desperate for a deal and see if the Irish government would be willing to discuss the Nicky Morgan report regarding alternative arrangements for the border. Hopefully this could form the basis of a possible compromise, which could get through Parliament.

 

[BobKowalski]

Or the UK leaves with a no deal, one possibly enforced by the EU and all bets are off.

Its all good and well repeating whats acceptable to Dublin and Brussels but there is another player here.

And after the U.K. leaves with no deal...what happens next? Answer in the short term lots of time limited temporary deals which requires EU goodwill. Answer long term is that the U.K. needs a permanent deal with it’s biggest and nearest trading bloc and for that all 27 European countries need to agree. Including Dublin. We cannot escape the reality of how this plays out. We either accept the price now or later or stay.

 

[BobKowalski]

What do you mean "we"?

Point taken :)

 

[BobKowalski]

If I were Boris I’d be speaking to the 30 or so Labour MPs who are desperate for a deal and see if the Irish government would be willing to discuss the Nicky Morgan report regarding alternative arrangements for the border. Hopefully this could form the basis of a possible compromise, which could get through Parliament.

They aren’t. The AA in effect require the Republic to form a separate Single Market with the U.K. Dublin has no intention of entering into a partial union with the U.K. at the expense of the EU Single Market just to help us Brexit. Politically it would be suicide. Dublin will push to maintain the all Ireland market in the EU Single Market and have custom checks down the Irish Sea.

We can get all sorts of Brexit friendly nonsense through Parliament ie The Brady Amendment. Getting the EU to agree something that can also get through Parliament is the problem.

Also the idea that there are 30 Labour MPs that would trust Johnson is a stretch to put it mildly even if Johnson friendly journos are happy to tout it.

 

[Ban-jani]

Does the cynic in you not consider that a referendum that had May's WA or Remain as the options would be more about loading the dice utterly to ensure that there was no mistake a 2nd time.

I would vote Remain before I would vote for an unfettered backstop - so it does seem a somewhat loaded set of options

Yes and that’s why it won’t be on it.

Surely the whole point of this is to come out of it with the best situation for the country?

Full integration is a worse position than our current position, why give that away?

Even IF, and it’s a big IF, full integration is inevitable, we might as well get the most out of our opt outs and vetoes now.

 

[Ban-jani]

The backstop is the price for the WA. It’s the price Dublin wants for agreeing to the WA. It’s the price Dublin will demand for any future trade/relationship deal. You want a legal mechanism to leave the EU? Then the price is the backstop. Don’t want the backstop and still leave the EU? Then the U.K. signs up to the SM and CU Norway style or Swiss style. There is a price to pay for leaving the EU. Either pay it or stay. Our choice. Our problem is that we can’t accept this and three years on and it’s still having our cake and chowing down on it time.

Which is why we will elect Johnson.

This is absolutely bang on and so important at this late hour.

Everything apart from the last part as none of us are electing anyone.

 

[Len Rum]

Not biting Len but thanks for the opportunity.

No problem mate. I get your argument now - fascism can't happen here cos Hitler and Mussolini aren't around.
Cool.