Another new Brexit thread

[cibaman]

It's possible. It would depend on the terms of reunification. If the 6 counties were to come in on the same terms as the existing 26 then there's already provisions in the constitution for that. If they were to have a devolved government in Belfast then that might require an all island referendum. The 6 counties would also need to ratify our constitution by referendum.

Could you have an all island referendum? And what if the 6 counties failed to ratify your constitution? The article I read suggested that there would need to be two referendums in the south but the GFA specifies a single Yes/No referendum in the north. Which might be contentious if only people in the south had a say on the detail.

 

[Metal Biker]

I've asked the question over there several times, quite sincerely, What is British? and I've never got a satisfactory answer.
Nobody English that I know could really explain.

Damned if I could tell you, mate.

To me it's the Acts of Union 1707 and 1801. "British Culture"? No idea.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I read somewhere that if there were to be a border poll, there would have to be two referendums in the republic. One on the principle of unification and then a later one to agree the detail. Is that correct?

Not entirely sure, but I would imagine the first vote would be on whether re-unification was accepted or not.
There would then, I presume have to be a rewording of the constitution which would require a referendum.

 

[Metal Biker]

@Mëtal Bikër

Just to go further on your point, what gets me is that Labour’s Brexit policy was to remain in the Customs Union, which is essentially what the backstop is.

I get the feeling them wanting to attach a 2nd referendum to it was to pave the way for leaver rebellion against the Tories, should they agree to it, and a collapse of Government to bring forth a General Election.

I and others want us to leave the Customs Union, to allow the UK to establish other customs and trade deals with other nations and not hold the EU as paramount. If this nation is not free to establish new trade deals on it's own volition without interference from Brussels, we haven't left. The EU wants to continue to have a say in every trade deal the UK negotiates and that is not acceptible.

 

[aguero93:20]

Could you have an all island referendum? And what if the 6 counties failed to ratify your constitution? The article I read suggested that there would need to be two referendums in the south but the GFA specifies a single Yes/No referendum in the north. Which might be contentious if only people in the south had a say on the detail.

1 referendum for NI to leave the UK and join the Republic. (North)
1 referendum to accept the 6 counties as part of the Republic*. (South)
1 referendum to set out any devolved status for Northern Ireland. (All Island, which would now all be in the Republic).

*this one wouldn't previously have been necessary but we removed our assertion of territory over the 6 counties from the constitution as part of the GFA.

So 1 for each separately and then 1 for everyone together.

 

[johnnytapia]

1 referendum for NI to leave the UK and join the Republic. (North)
1 referendum to accept the 6 counties as part of the Republic*. (South)
1 referendum to set out any devolved status for Northern Ireland. (All Island, which would now all be in the Republic).

*this one wouldn't previously have been necessary but we removed our assertion of territory over the 6 counties from the constitution as part of the GFA.

So 1 for each separately and then 1 for everyone together.

And we think Brexit is complicated...

 

[BobKowalski]

I've asked the question over there several times, quite sincerely, What is British? and I've never got a satisfactory answer.
Nobody English that I know could really explain.

For what’s it worth I indentity as British not English. But then I may subconsciously conflate the two as being the same thing. On the other hand I was raised abroad as an British Army brat so everything was styled as ‘British’. ‘British Army on The Rhine’, British Forces Radio etc. England was never referenced or mentioned.

No idea what this proves :)

 

[yerwot?]

Do brexits expect remainers to "compromise".(surrender). Any change is a bad change when what we have is the very best available. Only fools negotiate with criminals and expect to win
Revoke is the only way, no compromise no mercy and no more fkin' lies

 

[Ban-jani]

I and others want us to leave the Customs Union, to allow the UK to establish other customs and trade deals with other nations and not hold the EU as paramount. If this nation is not free to establish new trade deals on it's own volition without interference from Brussels, we haven't left. The EU wants to continue to have a say in every trade deal the UK negotiates and that is not acceptible.

Yes I know.

What I’m saying is the backstop is the same but it allows us to strike new trade deals, it’s better than Labour’s proposal.

From my understanding.

My point is that Labour’s position made no sense.

 

[cibaman]

1 referendum for NI to leave the UK and join the Republic. (North)
1 referendum to accept the 6 counties as part of the Republic*. (South)
1 referendum to set out any devolved status for Northern Ireland. (All Island, which would now all be in the Republic).

*this one wouldn't previously have been necessary but we removed our assertion of territory over the 6 counties from the constitution as part of the GFA.

So 1 for each separately and then 1 for everyone together.

So if they both said yes to the individual referendums, but the all island referendum was a no, what would be the constitution of the unified Ireland?

 

[blueinsa]

Do brexits expect remainers to "compromise".(surrender). Any change is a bad change when what we have is the very best available. Only fools negotiate with criminals and expect to win
Revoke is the only way, no compromise no mercy and no more fkin' lies

No compromise, no mercy..........

Still on your war footing i see buzzer?

 

[aguero93:20]

So if they both said yes to the individual referendums, but the all island referendum was a no, what would be the constitution of the unified Ireland?

The current Republic's constitution and they'd be governed by Dublin at national level and county councils at local level. Don't think that's the immediate way to go though.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

It's possible. It would depend on the terms of reunification. If the 6 counties were to come in on the same terms as the existing 26 then there's already provisions in the constitution for that. If they were to have a devolved government in Belfast then that might require an all island referendum. The 6 counties would also need to ratify our constitution by referendum.

Article 3 of our constitution looks like it could accommodate it but I doubt it would prove that simple.

Looking at the DFA documentation, I don't know whether this draft legislation is actually is the final wording or not but given the current difficulties in British Parliament agreeing how to Brexit could you imagine the difficulty getting any kind of Nexit through a conservative government?

DRAFT CLAUSES/SCHEDULES FOR INCORPORATION IN BRITISH LEGISLATION
1. (1) It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule

1. (2) But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.

2. The Government of Ireland Act 1920 is repealed; and this Act shall have effect notwithstanding any other previous enactment.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes I know.

What I’m saying is the backstop is the same but it allows us to strike new trade deals, it’s better than Labour’s proposal.

From my understanding.

My point is that Labour’s position made no sense.

My main issue with the WA was that, and that it was perceived the people of NI were not happy about it. If the EU is prepared to renegotiate the matter of the customs union, allowing us freedom to make our own deals without interference, plus with the knowledge the majority of NI are not concerned by the backstop, i'd be in favour of Parliament passing it.

 

[Blue Hefner]

 

[Rascal]

I've asked the question over there several times, quite sincerely, What is British? and I've never got a satisfactory answer.
Nobody English that I know could really explain.

I think it is really hard to explain because of the rise of negative connotations surrounding the use of the word British with Nationalists. Its not a distinct culture, it can not be because of the cultural differences not only between the constituent nations of the Union but also between the regions of the nations. It shares a common language but has secondary and distinct languages, it remains class riven whilst some areas have more in common with others such as maybe Manchester sharing a common industrial heritage with Glasgow, Manchester and Glasgow will share nothing but language with a village in Berkshire. It could be said Britishness is forced upon the other nations of the Union by the dominance of the English but without that enforcement there would be no metaphorical Great in Britain. So it could be argued that each constituent nation contributes to the overall sense of Britishness. That Britain would be one with a long history that is not all good but dominated the world, a Britain that has the mother of Parliaments and the Magna Carta but one that also forced the treaty of Union through with Scotland and was brutal in its oppression of Ireland under Cromwell.

I think Britishness only comes to the fore in times of national crisis, then it can be formidable but in normal times each part of the nation gets on with being itself and revels in its own identity. The English have always been at the core of Britishness as the dominant partner which is why the rise of English Nationalism makes me so fearful for our combined futures. I see our collective values of tolerance, understanding, democracy and fairness as being under threat.

I know that doesn't really answer your question at all, it is just muses, so how do i identify myself. I am foremost a proud Mancunian and everything else is secondary to that. I tick the box British if I am answering a questionnaire, I rarely consider myself English because English identity is distinct from Mancunian identity in my eyes. I see England as London and the Home Counties. I just don't have much in common with them and they don't with me.

 

[aguero93:20]

Article 3 of our constitution looks like it could accommodate it but I doubt it would prove that simple.

Looking at the DFA documentation, I don't know whether this draft legislation is actually is the final wording or not but given the current difficulties in British Parliament agreeing how to Brexit could you imagine the difficulty getting any kind of Nexit through a conservative government?

DRAFT CLAUSES/SCHEDULES FOR INCORPORATION IN BRITISH LEGISLATION
1. (1) It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule

1. (2) But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.

2. The Government of Ireland Act 1920 is repealed; and this Act shall have effect notwithstanding any other previous enactment.

That's the dodgy bit alright, I wouldn't trust the Tories to actually obey it. They've form on that regard in the past.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Even Nigel Farage think Boris Johnson is talking shite - maybe Nige should be more positive or believe more? Or Maybe Nige is right?

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Edit - Just copy and paste the link. It's only a couple of minutes long

 

[i kne albert davy]

Do brexits expect remainers to "compromise".(surrender). Any change is a bad change when what we have is the very best available. Only fools negotiate with criminals and expect to win
Revoke is the only way, no compromise no mercy and no more fkin' lies

Adolf Hitler the bunker April 1945.

 

[aguero93:20]

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