Another new Brexit thread

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bugsyblue said:
I disagree but okay. So which countries WERE fighting the good fight then?

You seem to compare the EU against your ideals and not against the actual real world.
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It's not entirely clear from a quick skim, but snubbing a zero carbon aim and signing up for climate change improvements are not incompatible positions. Blocking one and supporting another could be perfectly logical.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
So why would it be considered improper if we were to suddenly start feeling the same about others who openly admit wanting nothing to do with us anymore?

Seems as though "Others casting England adrift = good and wholesome" but "England casting others adrift = bad and nationalistic".

What exactly is this "union" we have anymore? Seems to only be economic.
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Yep - I made a couple of posts suggesting that English interests have some value as well

Quickly shouted down - only Irish and Scottish interests should be addressed it seems
 
aguero93:20 said:
Rees-Mogg, Fox, Farage, Patel, Robinson... Do I need to go on? All with a political ideal that they'll follow no matter the harm to the people of your nation. I won't include Johnson as he's a blatant opportunist.
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Yes you do need to go on, and need to show me where i've genuinely supported them, and not in an ironic, sarcastic or mischievous sense.

Are you referring to "me" personally, or all brexit supporters, because you'll find that, aside from their stance that brexit must happen, not should, must, I do not share how those same personalities think it should happen. I do not support no deal, I do not support the UK signing the WA, I do not support the Tories, I do not support Farage, I would have supported Corbyns CM 2.0, I support leaving the EU by joining the EFTA, a "Swiss Model" which the EU offered the UK, but May turned it down, because she wanted to end FoM, which I support as well.

So, what were you talking about when you said "I promote these demagogues"?
 
mcfc1632 said:
Yep - I made a couple of posts suggesting that English interests have some value as well

Quickly shouted down - only Irish and Scottish interests should be addressed it seems
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England's not a country but Scotland is.

Didn't you get the memo? ;)
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Yes you do need to go on, and need to show me where i've genuinely supported them, and not in an ironic, sarcastic or mischievous sense.

Are you referring to "me" personally, or all brexit supporters, because you'll find that, aside from their stance that brexit must happen, not should, I do not share how those same personalities think it should happen. I do not support no deal, I do not support the UK signing the WA, I do not support the Tories, I do not support Farage, I support leaving the EU by joining the EFTA, a "Swiss Model" which the EU offered the UK, but May turned it down, because she wanted to end FoM, which I support as well.

So, what were you talking about when you said "I promote these demagogues"?
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You along with others have given these nutters a position of power. Everyone who voted either for Brexit or the Tories in 2017 bear part of the responsibility for that cabinet and the ideology they're pursuing and those that didn't bear responsibility for not convincing their fellow voters to do better. From the day you voted for Brexit the nutters that promoted it were going to make high office. This was your choice. Own it.
 
aguero93:20 said:
She wants a deal, but she wants a deal where she gets everything and gives nothing.
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Oh yeah.

I see she's parroting the line...The EU is breaking up the union.

I smell a rat....

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Mëtal Bikër said:
Only once people put pressure on them.

Otherwise they couldn't care less. Remember there are two EU's; it's member nations and those in the actual system of "Parliament" who are so disconnected with everyone else.
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Yes absolutely to both points but my position has always been that sorting out continent and possibly world wide issues is much better done if we’re all politically connected.

I’d rather the UN operated like the EU does.
 
aguero93:20 said:
You along with others have given these nutters a position of power. Everyone who voted either for Brexit or the Tories in 2017 bear part of the responsibility for that cabinet and the ideology they're pursuing and those that didn't bear responsibility for not convincing their fellow voters to do better. From the day you voted for Brexit the nutters that promoted it were going to make high office. This was your choice. Own it.
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  • I didn't vote for any one of those people currently in Government or in Parliament. I voted for an independent MP.
  • So because I voted honestly, I am to blame for those in Government causing the mess we are in, when they could have voted in the WA, which the EU helped negotiate, but both the opposition and May's own Government voted against? Leave voting Labour voters are also to blame? Are you being serious right now? I'm just as pissed off as everyone else about their failure to deliver. "If you voted at all in the Irish elections, you somehow voted for and support Varadkar" is that how this works?
  • What absolute nonsense from you here. I don't control Government policy any more so than had I abstained from either the 2016 referendum and the 2017 General Election. You're arguing the case that only a vote for remain absolves people from blame. That is such narrow-minded thinking.
I "own" the decision I took, as one that was honest and reflected my viewpoint in the referendum that was free and open. I had no expectation that leave would return the larger support amongst the electorate. I "own" my decision, I have no ownership for the failure of MP's, whom I did NOT elect or support, for failing to reach a satisfactory conclusion.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
  • I didn't vote for any one of those people currently in Government or in Parliament. I voted for an independent MP.
  • So because I voted honestly, I am to blame for those in Government causing the mess we are in, when they could have voted in the WA, which the EU helped negotiate, but both the opposition and May's own Government voted against? Leave voting Labour voters are also to blame? Are you being serious right now? I'm just as pissed off as everyone else about their failure to deliver. "If you voted at all in the Irish elections, you somehow voted for and support Varadkar" is that how this works?
  • What absolute nonsense from you here. I don't control Government policy any more so than had I abstained from either the 2016 referendum and the 2017 General Election. You're arguing the case that only a vote for remain absolves people from blame. That is such narrow-minded thinking.
I "own" the decision I took, as one that was honest and reflected my viewpoint in the referendum that was free and open. I had no expectation that leave would return the larger support amongst the electorate. I "own" my decision, I have no ownership for the failure of MP's, whom I did NOT elect or support, for failing to reach a satisfactory conclusion.
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You voted Brexit mate, your current cabinet are the cheerleaders for that vote, you voted for them. When you voted for something led by IDS, Farage and Johnson you were never going to get some utopian Lexit. This is your government. You're accountable for them, as are all your electorate, even if remain and non Tory voters are to a lesser extent. I don't vote FF or FG but I'm still accountable for the Irish government as they're my government.
 
Ban-jani said:
Yes absolutely to both points but my position has always been that sorting out continent and possibly world wide issues is much better done if we’re all politically connected.

I’d rather the UN operated like the EU does.
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How can you realistically address 500m people's opinions without pissing off a huge chunk of them?

That's why smaller governments work better. The Council of Europe was fine and achieved the same aspects, such as the ECHR. A political "EU" wasn't needed, required or wanted. Note, it only came into existance once Germany was reunified and was always the case that it would once that day came about. It's a European powergrab and I cannot endorse it any longer. A co-operative Europe, not a federal one.

You think differently, that's fine, but it's not my position nor is it one you can or ever will change.
 
aguero93:20 said:
You voted Brexit mate, your current cabinet are the cheerleaders for that vote, you voted for them. When you voted for something led by IDS, Farage and Johnson you were never going to get some utopian Lexit. This is your government. You're accountable for them, as are all your electorate, even if remain and non Tory voters are to a lesser extent. I don't vote FF or FG but I'm still accountable for the Irish government as they're my government.
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I do disagree with this.

I’m not responsible for this shit show, I’ve voted against it at every available opportunity and I’m only accountable for myself.
 
aguero93:20 said:
You voted Brexit mate, your current cabinet are the cheerleaders for that vote, you voted for them. When you voted for something led by IDS, Farage and Johnson you were never going to get some utopian Lexit. This is your government. You're accountable for them, as are all your electorate, even if remain and non Tory voters are to a lesser extent. I don't vote FF or FG but I'm still accountable for the Irish government as they're my government.
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I voted for the UK to leave the European Union.

I am not accountable for a Government or a Parliament whose members and policies I rejected at the ballot box. All you're advocating here is a case for apathy; to be absolved of "blame", I should just not vote. Is that what you're wishing for, here?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
How can you realistically address 500m people's opinions without pissing off a huge chunk of them?

That's why smaller governments work better. The Council of Europe was fine and achieved the same aspects, such as the ECHR. A political "EU" wasn't needed, required or wanted. Note, it only came into existance once Germany was reunified and was always the case that it would once that day came about. It's a European powergrab and I cannot endorse it any longer. A co-operative Europe, not a federal one.

You think differently, that's fine, but it's not my position nor is it one you can or ever will change.
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You’re not dismissing people’s opinions are you?

Those that voted for he Brexit Party are represented, just as I am with my Liberal Democrat MEP.

I’m talking about potentially catastrophic issues across the whole of the continent and the ability to deal with them effectively.

Climate change is far easier to deal with if there is a a European Parliament, than if there isn’t.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
I voted for the UK to leave the European Union.

I am not accountable for a Government or a Parliament whose members and policies I rejected at the ballot box. All you're advocating here is a case for apathy; to be absolved of "blame", I should just not vote. Is that what you're wishing for, here?
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You voted for an ideal led by Johnson and Farage. Who did you expect would influence how it was carried out?
 
Ban-jani said:
I do disagree with this.

I’m not responsible for this shit show, I’ve voted against it at every available opportunity and I’m only accountable for myself.
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You're all responsible mate, it's your government. That's the way it's seen in the rest of the world.
 
Ban-jani said:
I do disagree with this.

I’m not responsible for this shit show, I’ve voted against it at every available opportunity and I’m only accountable for myself.
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Exactly.

I voted in a referendum to voice my opinion. It was not legally binding. The elected Government (whose members I did not vote for) have proceeding to carrying out this referendum result. I find it favourable, as I advocate leaving the EU. I do not support their methods to achieve this, and haven't done since. My candidate for my area did nto get voted to Parliament, so my chosen candidate is not represented there.

But apparently, because I support brexit, everything of these past 3 years, is my fault. Vote wasn't binding, this mess is all on those who support the Tories view of brexit.
 
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