Another new Brexit thread

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The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
November 2018. Home secretary Sajid Javid said no deal with the EU could cause a sharp rise in crime and widespread protests escalating into weeks of chaos, there is the “real possibility” that soldiers would have to be deployed on the streets, even with police leave postponed.

Part of his report says: “There is an expectation that crime not directly connected to Brexit will rise, as acquisitive crime will habitually rise in the event of restricted availability of goods.”

He now seems to be desperate for no deal and he’s now spending £344m for border and customs operations, including the recruitment of an extra 500 Border Force officers, training and new IT.
Additional funds will be made available for the Operation Brockets traffic management system, under which thousands of lorries are expected to be parked on A-roads and motorways and in the disused Manston airfield in Kent as they queue to use the port of Dover.

Some £434m will be devoted to trying to maintain supplies of medicines and medical products by boosting freight capacity and providing warehouse facilities for stockpiling.

In all, an immediate cash boost of £1.1bn will be directed at critical areas like border operations, medicines and transport, and a further £1bn made available for use by local authorities and devolved governments as the 31 October deadline for Brexit approaches.
Yet another magic money tree appears to have been found.
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They are all over the place.............a decent campaign from all the opposition parties will make their position look like a circus.
 
Vic said:
Wow. Who's your drama tutor?

giphy.gif



I'll agree there is no formal and clear mandate for anything because the referendum was only advisory, and therefore it is perfectly legitimate for Parliament to decide that as no-one mentioned leaving without a deal there's no mandate for that.

Have you yet got a quote from any Leaver that said we'd leave without a deal (or even didn't say we'd leave with a deal)? That's the fact we seem short of.

It doesn't even seem to get a mention in the petition saying we should leave without a deal. You'd think they'd want to remind Parliament of all the times leaving without a deal was mentioned.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/254329
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You say:

"Have you yet got a quote from any Leaver that said we'd leave without a deal (or even didn't say we'd leave with a deal)? That's the fact we seem short of."

For me you are just missing the point entirely and this is not at all 'what is missing' - increasingly, I suspect deliberately.

The question on the Ballot Paper was clear - to Leave the EU or to Remain - and it did not include any constraints to that decision such as the shape of a deal.

Any shape of a deal, including No-Deal, would be simply the consequence/outcome of the negotiations. This is blindingly obvious and, for me, not accepting that fact is simple prevarication.

Not much point continuing with this until you stop the deflection and accept the truth of the statement above - otherwise it is just wasting time on your deflection.
 
Ban-jani said:
No it isn’t. Because full integration is infinitely better than Brexit still.

The timeline of it isn’t clear and I’m not 100% of it, I just admit I think it will be likely at some point. The EU do want to, that much is obvious.

It’s still better than not being a part of the strongest trading bloc in the history of the world.
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Yes it is - I said:

"So now you accept that - the position of any Leaver that does not want full integration is validated"

You are not a Leaver and what you state in your post is simply your opinion and prejudice.

It is a simple fact that your acceptance that Remaining will likely lead to integration - confirms and validates what a good many Leavers think. The only difference then is how people view this largely inevitable conclusion.

In a previous post you said of integration:

"Full integration isn’t terrible, it’s just not quite as good as we currently have it....."

That is a fine view to hold - it is why you voted Remain

I do not share that view - that is why I voted to Leave.
 
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Saddleworth2 said:
You avoided my question why no deal was better than Mays deal. I posted my thoughts, why haven't you documented yours. By the way, you will need to do better than unfettered backstop waffle. Please address the consequences of both options in your response, both economic and political.
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My thoughts have been listed many times - and - No thanks to your invitation to set out what you demand - I am on hols and do not feel inclined to answer to your beck and call

But for expediency - my position is simple:

1. The length and severity of any economic impact will depend on the manner in which we exit - no-deal will be worse than a good deal

But.....

2. I am absolutely convinced that Remaining is worse than any 'genuine' Leave outcome in the long-term - certainly politically (I do not want the UK to be a state within the USoE) and economically (we will be relentlessly eroded as the EU strives to bring all up to the same level)​

So......

3. For me any genuine leave outcome - including No-Deal if there is not a good deal to be had - is therefore preferable to Remaining

But..…..

4. A bad deal - such as May's deal with a backstop that will keep us in the CU for many years and be utterly abused to the detriment of the UK - is far worse than Remaining

So...…..

I would revoke A50 rather than accept May's deal - the major flaw of which is the unfettered backstop - that simply has to be removed - absolute Red Line
 
mcfc1632 said:
My thoughts have been listed many times - and - No thanks to your invitation to set out what you demand - I am on hols and do not feel inclined to answer to your beck and call

But for expediency - my position is simple:

1. The length and severity of any economic impact will depend on the manner in which we exit - no-deal will be worse than a good deal

But.....

2. I am absolutely convinced that Remaining is worse than any 'genuine' Leave outcome in the long-term - certainly politically (I do not want the UK to be a state within the USoE) and economically (we will be relentlessly eroded as the EU strives to bring all up to the same level)​

So......

3. For me any genuine leave outcome - including No-Deal if there is not a good deal to be had - is therefore preferable to Remaining

But..…..

4. A bad deal - such as May's deal with a backstop that will keep us in the CU for many years and be utterly abused to the detriment of the UK - is far worse than Remaining

So...…..

I would revoke A50 rather than accept May's deal - the major flaw of which is the unfettered backstop - that simply has to be removed - absolute Red Line
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Thanks for your response. I glean from that you prefer no deal to Mays deal although your reasons are set out at very macro level.

You would prefer to go through a unquantifiable ‘no deal’ economic hit than accept May’s deal and negotiate new trade arrangements with the EU that had an Irish backstop. You would rather mitigate the future risk of further Integration into the EU by ensuring there will need to be custom controls and the real risk of return to violence in Ireland. As we have discussed before, a no deal will also increase the risk of independent Scotland and Ireland and the likely breakup of the U.K. interestingly, yesterday’s news included an estimate that a tech solution to the border is ten years away.

I am extrapolating that from the views you posted, not from what you said in your post. Forgive me if I got that wrong but it’s a very logical conclusion to make.

Even after this length of time I am no closer to understanding the depth of fear and dislike around the risk of further EU integration. That it be put before the very real risks and consequences of a no deal Brexit genuinely baffles me. I have to admit it frustrates the hell out of me that I have not managed to get closer to an understanding either from what Leavers such as yourself post in these discusssions or some inability on my part to show empathy.

One last try though. I know you are on your holidays but can you help me understand the greater detail of why you and others would put a no deal Brexit in front of rescinding Article 50.
 
mcfc1632 said:
You say:

"Have you yet got a quote from any Leaver that said we'd leave without a deal (or even didn't say we'd leave with a deal)? That's the fact we seem short of."

For me you are just missing the point entirely and this is not at all 'what is missing' - increasingly, I suspect deliberately.

The question on the Ballot Paper was clear - to Leave the EU or to Remain - and it did not include any constraints to that decision such as the shape of a deal.

Any shape of a deal, including No-Deal, would be simply the consequence/outcome of the negotiations. This is blindingly obvious and, for me, not accepting that fact is simple prevarication.

Not much point continuing with this until you stop the deflection and accept the truth of the statement above - otherwise it is just wasting time on your deflection.
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"Any shape of a deal, including No-Deal, would be simply the consequence/outcome of the negotiations. This is blindingly obvious."

Yet you won't answer the question. Is that not "deflecting"?

Do you want to walk across this plank over a big drop? Yes or no?

Is there a safety net?

Not yet but it will be like the one in Norway or Canada (or the one from Iceland to the Russian border).

Won't it take a long time to put up?

Don't be a gloom merchant. It'll be ready.

Ok then. Aaaaaargh......

Well, no-one guaranteed we'd really, most sincerely put up a net and now you're really, most sincerely dead. You should have realised that the shape of a net included No Net. That was blindingly obvious.

(Voice from the grave) You devious bastard!

END

Are you the man behind the curtain? We'd like you to keep your promise.

 
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Rebecca Long Bailey has ruled out Labour participating in a national unity government. The Queen has probably breathed a partial sigh of relief
 
mcfc1632 said:
Yes it is - I said:

"So now you accept that - the position of any Leaver that does not want full integration is validated"

You are not a Leaver and what you state your post is simply your opinion and prejudice.

It is a simple fact that your acceptance that Remaining will likely lead to integration - confirms and validates what a good many Leavers think. The only difference then is how people view this largely inevitable conclusion.

In a previous post you said of integration:

"Full integration isn’t terrible, it’s just not quite as good as we currently have it....."

That is a fine view to hold - it is why you voted Remain

I do not share that view - that is why I voted to Leave.
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No, the argument is whether leaving is better for the UK than staying. You make it out to be a preference akin to what takeaway you’d prefer. The fact remains (no pun intended) that the UK is more powerful, more economically better off and more secure within its own union as a member of the EU, whether we’re in Schengen, fully integrated or as we are. The timeline of integration is very unclear. We could have 50-100 years as we are. Who knows, we may be able to continue to opt-out indefinitely. It’s not completely clear yet, I’m just saying I’m presuming it likely at some point.

 
mcfc1632 said:
My thoughts have been listed many times - and - No thanks to your invitation to set out what you demand - I am on hols and do not feel inclined to answer to your beck and call

But for expediency - my position is simple:

1. The length and severity of any economic impact will depend on the manner in which we exit - no-deal will be worse than a good deal

But.....

2. I am absolutely convinced that Remaining is worse than any 'genuine' Leave outcome in the long-term - certainly politically (I do not want the UK to be a state within the USoE) and economically (we will be relentlessly eroded as the EU strives to bring all up to the same level)​

So......

3. For me any genuine leave outcome - including No-Deal if there is not a good deal to be had - is therefore preferable to Remaining

But..…..

4. A bad deal - such as May's deal with a backstop that will keep us in the CU for many years and be utterly abused to the detriment of the UK - is far worse than Remaining

So...…..

I would revoke A50 rather than accept May's deal - the major flaw of which is the unfettered backstop - that simply has to be removed - absolute Red Line
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What's being on holiday got to do with anything?
Unless posting crap on the internet is actually your job.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
as you know, the figure that was quoted bears no relation to reality so was just an outright lie. If your ok with that then its your conscience. The £19bn when rebate and monies received back from the EU for both private and public sectors is around £6.5bn which would still be a large number but of course doesn't reflect the financial benefits membership of the EU brings to the UK. Who cares that the bus was a deliberate lie and aimed at misleading the voting population.
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Who cared about the immediate 10% tax rise said by the chancellor if we voted to leave?
Who cared about the 500,000 jobs going if we voted to leave?
Who cared about Obama's threats?
Who cared about the Bank of England boss's dire predictions?
Plenty, apparently, because they believed them all, and voted to remain.
My conscience is perfectly clear, how's yours?
 
Ancient Citizen said:
Who cared about the immediate 10% tax rise said by the chancellor if we voted to leave?
Who cared about the 500,000 jobs going if we voted to leave?
Who cared about Obama's threats?
Who cared about the Bank of England boss's dire predictions?
Plenty, apparently, because they believed them all, and voted to remain.
My conscience is perfectly clear, how's yours?
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Its fine. I haven't voted for this debacle. You have.
 
Michael Gove 2016 “if we do vote to leave, we’ll be able to dictate the terms to the EU”.

How’s that going Michael?
 
lancs blue said:
Which just about sums up the poverty of our politics. The official opposition worried about its ideological purity while the people wallow in the shit of a no-deal Brexit.
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or maybe all the other parties are happy to sit on the side lines and watch the Tories disintegrate and disappear over the mess they are in rather than help them spread the blame and try and weasel out of responsibility.
 
Ban-jani said:
Michael Gove 2016 “if we do vote to leave, we’ll be able to dictate the terms to the EU”.

How’s that going Michael?
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as minister after minister now is going through their suit trousers knees "dictating" terms in the kneeling/grovelling position lol
 
bluethrunthru said:
or maybe all the other parties are happy to sit on the side lines and watch the Tories disintegrate and disappear over the mess they are in rather than help them spread the blame and try and weasel out of responsibility.
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All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.
 
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