Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.

That went out of the window when the Tories chose the new PM. Welfare of the people didn't come into it.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.

What a novel idea!

(where the novel is Utopia)

 

[Saddleworth2]

I'm happy how I voted, and it wasn't from fear, unlike the remain side who voted because they were scared
witless by all the false statements.

At least you are consistently wrong.

 

[lancs blue]

What a novel idea!

(where the novel is Utopia)

Maybe but what's the point of politicians continually pissing all over us for the sake of their party unity?

 

[west didsblue]

I'm happy how I voted, and it wasn't from fear, unlike the remain side who voted because they were scared
witless by all the false statements.

You know why 16.2 million people voted the way they did?
Really?

 

[lancs blue]

That went out of the window when the Tories chose the new PM. Welfare of the peoole didn't come into it.

WTF? So because the Tories did it other parties have to follow suit? Great future this country's got if everyone thinks like that.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Maybe but what's the point of politicians continually pissing all over us for the sake of their party unity?

Oh, I agree with you. It's tipped way into too far into zealotry and self-protection.

 

[Vic]

WTF? So because the Tories did it other parties have to follow suit? Great future this country's got if everyone thinks like that.

All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.

The Tories didn't.

The other parties should.

But the Tories didn't - so it's now impossible for all parties to do it.

 

[lancs blue]

All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.

The Tories didn't.

The other parties should.

But the Tories didn't - so it's now impossible for all parties to do it.

That discounts the possibility of the Tories changing in the future. Unlikely perhaps but the possibility shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm happy how I voted, and it wasn't from fear, unlike the remain side who voted because they were scared
witless by all the false statements.

You’re right, I did vote from fear.

Fear that I was being lied to by cunts like Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg. Fear that voting to leave was going to ruin the economy. Fear that voting to leave would be a massive waste of money. Fear that voting to leave would turn our focus away from what will ACTUALLY make the country better. Fear that the pound would be weakened to record lows. Fear that we wouldn’t hold all the cards and whatever deal we negotiated or didn’t negotiate would be worse than what we had. Fear it’d turn us into a laughing stock internationally. Fear it would expose constitutional issues. Fear the Good Friday Agreement would be put at huge risk. Fear it would cause an avalanche of social issues that would rip families apart. Fear that it could lead to break up of the UK and that England would become an isolated and xenophobic small country. Fear that we’d be reliant on a trade deal from Trump that would likely take as much advantage of our weak position as possible.

All of the above is at least looking likely, with a lot of it already happening or having happened.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Don’t waste your time.
The cunts won’t care about the truth.

 

[mcfc1632]

Thanks for your response. I glean from that you prefer no deal to Mays deal although your reasons are set out at very macro level.

You would prefer to go through a unquantifiable ‘no deal’ economic hit than accept May’s deal and negotiate new trade arrangements with the EU that had an Irish backstop. You would rather mitigate the future risk of further Integration into the EU by ensuring there will need to be custom controls and the real risk of return to violence in Ireland. As we have discussed before, a no deal will also increase the risk of independent Scotland and Ireland and the likely breakup of the U.K. interestingly, yesterday’s news included an estimate that a tech solution to the border is ten years away.

I am extrapolating that from the views you posted, not from what you said in your post. Forgive me if I got that wrong but it’s a very logical conclusion to make.
Even after this length of time I am no closer to understanding the depth of fear and dislike around the risk of further EU integration. That it be put before the very real risks and consequences of a no deal Brexit genuinely baffles me. I have to admit it frustrates the hell out of me that I have not managed to get closer to an understanding either from what Leavers such as yourself post in these discusssions or some inability on my part to show empathy.

One last try though. I know you are on your holidays but can you help me understand the greater detail of why you and others would put a no deal Brexit in front of rescinding Article 50.

Just a brief response - as the pool calls

You are to a large degree correct in your extrapolations - although I detect an emphasis that reflects your views, prejudices and assumptions and not my own.

1. "I glean from that you prefer no deal to Mays deal..... " Correct - unless the backstop is fettered by a time limit or other criteria that the UK can control​

2. "You would prefer to go through a unquantifiable ‘no deal’ economic hit than accept May’s deal and negotiate new trade arrangements with the EU that had an Irish backstop...…" That point seems the same as point 1 - so same answer

3. "You would rather mitigate the future risk of further Integration into the EU by ensuring there will need to be custom controls and the real risk of return to violence in Ireland." That seems largely the same as point 1 - so same answer, just adding that the political and economic future of the whole of the UK - can not be subject to the dictate of potential terrorism - I am surprised that you seem to suggest that it should. Personally I feel that the issue has been deliberately weaponised by the EU - abetted by Varadkar - and many UK citizens are lapping it up rather than being offended by that.

4. " As we have discussed before, a no deal will also increase the risk of independent Scotland and Ireland and the likely breakup of the U.K. interestingly, yesterday’s news included an estimate that a tech solution to the border is ten years away." The situation is not quite as you colour it is it? - there has been a significant movement within Scotland for independence for years anyway. What are you suggesting? - are we supposed to act like the EU and seek to prevent a nation enjoying the right of self-determination

Also - something that I have not seen even considered - The UK leaving the EU may in fact reduce the 'REAL' risk of Scotland leaving the union - can you, or any other Remainer understand why that this could be considered possible/likely?

5. "I am no closer to understanding the depth of fear and dislike around the risk of further EU integration....." It is satisfying to see an increasing level of honesty by Remainers with regard the inevitable consequences of the UK Remaining and why I say if we are to Remain - let's just get on with driving integration - because we are not going to be able to avoid it.

You are not the first person to show such honesty rather than hide behind the delusion of opt-outs and vetoes - but why has it taken over 3 years for this honesty to come to the fore is what baffles me

 

[mcfc1632]

"Any shape of a deal, including No-Deal, would be simply the consequence/outcome of the negotiations. This is blindingly obvious."

Yet you won't answer the question. Is that not "deflecting"?

Do you want to walk across this plank over a big drop? Yes or no?

Is there a safety net?

Not yet but it will be like the one in Norway or Canada (or the one from Iceland to the Russian border).

Won't it take a long time to put up?

Don't be a gloom merchant. It'll be ready.

Ok then. Aaaaaargh......

Well, no-one guaranteed we'd really, most sincerely put up a net and now you're really, most sincerely dead. You should have realised that the shape of a net included No Net. That was blindingly obvious.

(Voice from the grave) You devious bastard!

END

Are you the man behind the curtain? We'd like you to keep your promise.

Sorry Vic - you seem to be the one under a drama coach

The genuine question was indeed answered

You can try to make me responsible for all the comments made during a campaign environment - it will not get you anywhere though simply because it is a patently silly thing to attempt

 

[mcfc1632]

No, the argument is whether leaving is better for the UK than staying. You make it out to be a preference akin to what takeaway you’d prefer. The fact remains (no pun intended) that the UK is more powerful, more economically better off and more secure within its own union as a member of the EU, whether we’re in Schengen, fully integrated or as we are. The timeline of integration is very unclear. We could have 50-100 years as we are. Who knows, we may be able to continue to opt-out indefinitely. It’s not completely clear yet, I’m just saying I’m presuming it likely at some point.

So why is your absolute certainty that things will be better by Remaining any more valid than my certainty that things will be better by Leaving

I keep pointing out that the main difference between Leavers and Remainers has generally been our ability to countenance the views of others

 

[mcfc1632]

What's being on holiday got to do with anything?
Unless posting crap on the internet is actually your job.

So another valuable contribution from the esteemed Mr WDB - full of positivity and content

 

[mcfc1632]

That went out of the window when the Tories chose the new PM. Welfare of the people didn't come into it.

And there was any of that the right side of the window before that?

Simply not true I am afraid

 

[BobKowalski]

Seems we will be pulling out of the Interrail/Eurorail scheme at the end of this year which is a shame.

This Brexit lark is somewhat short on positives.

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

3. "You would rather mitigate the future risk of further Integration into the EU by ensuring there will need to be custom controls and the real risk of return to violence in Ireland." That seems largely the same as point 1 - so same answer, just adding that the political and economic future of the whole of the UK - can not be subject to the dictate of potential terrorism - I am surprised that you seem to suggest that it should. Personally I feel that the issue has been deliberately weaponised by the EU - abetted by Varadkar - and many UK citizens are lapping it up rather than being offended by that.

I take issue with this...i do not see how the EU are weaponising this. Brexit contravenes the GFA, an historic agreement negotiated and agreed by the UK with Ireland. Brexit is not being dictated by the threat of terrorism, Brexit is ignoring (trying to ignore) the terms of the GFA. You want to proceed with Brexit without considering or working with the GFA.
It proceeded Brexit, was agreed and ratified by the UK....it cant be set aside.

I just dont see how the EU and particular Varadkar as you keep mentioning, are weaponising and threatening the return of terrorism.

 

[Ban-jani]

So why is your absolute certainty that things will be better by Remaining any more valid than my certainty that things will be better by Leaving

I keep pointing out that the main difference between Leavers and Remainers has generally been our ability to countenance the views of others

It’s when you delve into specifics and areas of debate. For example if we go off what the leave side said prior to the referendum that we’d be economically better off, then that has been proven false now.

What areas of being a nation do you think we’d be better off for being out of the EU?

 

[bluethrunthru]

All parties should be putting the welfare of the people before political point-scoring.

something that has evaded the Tory Party until the cliff edge approaches and then suddenly the other parties should apply their brakes or they will be responsible for the debacle? Behave - tell you what hows about a Govt of National Unity excluding the Tories as thus far they have shown themselves unable to tackle the problem they created and should now take a back seat?