Another new Brexit thread

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49396108

They havent gone away ya know....


A senior police chief has appealed for political progress in Northern Ireland after bombers tried to lure officers to their deaths.
Police said dissident republicans were behind the explosion near Wattlebridge, close to the Irish border, on Monday.
PSNI Deputy Chief Constable Stephen Martin called the Fermanagh attack a "reckless and indiscriminate" attempt to kill police officers.

 

[aguero93:20]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49396108

They havent gone away ya know....


A senior police chief has appealed for political progress in Northern Ireland after bombers tried to lure officers to their deaths.
Police said dissident republicans were behind the explosion near Wattlebridge, close to the Irish border, on Monday.
PSNI Deputy Chief Constable Stephen Martin called the Fermanagh attack a "reckless and indiscriminate" attempt to kill police officers.

Yeah, definite escalation of hostilities there, this is only giving the likes of the CIRA oxygen.

 

[Rascal]

Look on the bright side - if we do not leave now then you will get your preferred outcome;-)

I don't think I will, for the simple reason nationalism is on the rise throughout the EU. As Orwell put it nationalism is ego-centric and it puts self interest first; he wrote that it was

“the lunatic modern habit of identifying oneself with large power units and seeing everything in terms of competitive prestige.”

That in itself would destroy the unity that the EU requires to exist.

I have found this if you want to read more, as ever Orwell is prescient

https://lithub.com/what-george-orwell-wrote-about-the-dangers-of-nationalism/

 

[Vic]

I don't think I will, for the simple reason nationalism is on the rise throughout the EU. As Orwell put it nationalism is ego-centric and it puts self interest first; he wrote that it was

“the lunatic modern habit of identifying oneself with large power units and seeing everything in terms of competitive prestige.”

That in itself would destroy the unity that the EU requires to exist.

I have found this if you want to read more, as ever Orwell is prescient

https://lithub.com/what-george-orwell-wrote-about-the-dangers-of-nationalism/

He's certainly right about "indifference to reality".

Not Orwell - not sure of the original source - but

"A nation is a group of people united by a common error about their ancestry and a common dislike of their neighbours".

The big question is why so many politicians who should know better want to encourage it especially when it is not in the national interest.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I'm more worried that as our water is EU owned we will wake up to see England's green and pleasant land reduced to a sandy desert on November the 1st if we leave without a deal. Combined with the lack of food and medicine I'm expecting England by Xmas to resemble Ethiopia in the early 80's. Presumably plans for a no deal brexit will have accounted for the fact that due to the Irish border bob geldhof will not ve able to do a charity pop concert to help us?

Mines not Eu owned ..... its owned by a hedge fund operating out of Hong Kong... which is why we have a leak on the hill which has been there for over a year... it even has a sign next to it saying that the Water Company is aware.... Loving every drop my arse.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Clever note that - not my cup of tea as a person - but a lot more nous than May

Theres no way Johnson wrote that .... spellings too good.

 

[Rascal]

The big question is why so many politicians who should know better want to encourage it especially when it is not in the national interest.

Politicians see the national interest as what matters to their ideological standpoint. I have always found the use of the term vacuous and condescending.

For instance I think it is in the national interest that Old Trafford should be reduced to rubble and replaced with a Disney style theme park. Others of a different persuasion think it is in the national interest for it to be turned into a cathedral of homage to Cantona.

Therefore whenever I hear anybody say "national interest" it immediately turns me cold as it should actually be "its in my interest for the nation"

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Don’t really see much difference. May started full of firm intent and then spend months backtracking. Johnson is exactly the same. Won’t meet EU leaders until our demand re the backstop is met nor will he be seen shuttling off to EU capitals. Three weeks later he is meeting them on their turf. This letter is the same. It’s a firm no to the backstop and buried at the end a pledge of unspecified new "commitments" to reassure EU on Irish border should "alternative arrangements" not be in place by end of post-Brexit transition period. Welcome to the new backstop, just don’t call it a backstop.

Funny .... He's saying that the Backstop is undemocratic ...... when it was his own party that proposed it in the first place. I hope that Tusk drops him a short note reminding him of that fact.

 

[hilts]

Every country is the same. You think we don't have dissenting voices criticising Varadkar, Martin and Coveney here? The difference is that 90% of the country are behind them to enough of a degree that the dissenting voices are pissing into the wind. The UK is heavily and near evenly divided on this issue and hence it weakens its position. The EU knows that, without any public comment being necessary.

This is true however the difference in dissenting voices and politicians/remainers actively saying they won’t let no deal happen is an extra step. Now we will never know if this would have panned out differently if the EU thought the chances of a no deal were higher, even slightly so. It’s why if by some strange outcome we left and things do turn to shit I told you so by the remainers won’t work.

3 years of you’re wrong has been a futile and pointless exercise. The thread only acts as a study of human behaviour in the main.

 

[Ban-jani]

The reality is that no government in your lifetime will bring forward another referendum if this one is aborted

They probably won’t but you’ll have the chance to vote for pro leave parties who will see through Brexit if they get into power.

 

[hilts]

Yeah because the current U.K. predicament is an absolute fucking mystery to the EU. I’ll try not to tip them off.

I think that’s called a wide

 

[cibaman]

They probably won’t but you’ll have the chance to vote for pro leave parties who will see through Brexit if they get into power.

Yes, if Brexit is cancelled it’s almost certain that the tories would fight the next election on a manifesto promise to take us out of the EU with or without a deal and without a referendum. And they might win

 

[hilts]

Yes, if Brexit is cancelled it’s almost certain that the tories would fight the next election on a manifesto promise to take us out of the EU with or without a deal and without a referendum. And they might win

I think that stance is unlikely in fairness, they may try and sell the 10s of thousands bollocks again in a different way and have a hardened stance on all things EU. A few empty pledges to be disruptive towards the federal EU direction. I’m not sure trying to grab bxp votes at the expense of remain votes would be sensible.

The Tories are pretty much fucked unless Boris pulls something out of the bag, personally I think his bag is empty.

 

[stonerblue]

Its sad that in 40 years the EU has not managed to enforce croque monsieurs standards upon British cheese on toast. Just spent two weeks in France and their Boeuf Hache are miles ahead of what passes for a burger in our supermarkets also. If the EU could sort this out as well as reinstating the full range of Findus crispy pancakes I'd vote Remain in a second referendum. I'd even dithering the pound and adopt the Euro if it made the crispy pancakes cheaper.

I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

[cibaman]

I think that stance is unlikely in fairness, they may try and sell the 10s of thousands bollocks again in a different way and have a hardened stance on all things EU. A few empty pledges to be disruptive towards the federal EU direction. I’m not sure trying to grab bxp votes at the expense of remain votes would be sensible.

The Tories are pretty much fucked unless Boris pulls something out of the bag, personally I think his bag is empty.

Personally I don’t think he has a bag

 

[Vic]

Funny .... He's saying that the Backstop is undemocratic ...... when it was his own party that proposed it in the first place. I hope that Tusk drops him a short note reminding him of that fact.

Use of "undemocratic" is just more Orwellian propaganda. You don't need more than the first paragraph of this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-doublethink-is-blinding-us-to-the-facts-xx7xlctg6

 

[Vic]

I think this is something we can all agree on.

Sorry but I can't agree to dithering the pound.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

I am at a loss! No back stop, no hard border, we will stop criminals coming over, how? How do we stop smuggling etc?

 

[BobKowalski]

This is true however the difference in dissenting voices and politicians/remainers actively saying they won’t let no deal happen is an extra step. Now we will never know if this would have panned out differently if the EU thought the chances of a no deal were higher, even slightly so. It’s why if by some strange outcome we left and things do turn to shit I told you so by the remainers won’t work.

3 years of you’re wrong has been a futile and pointless exercise. The thread only acts as a study of human behaviour in the main.

The EU anticipates it will be no deal. The German Govt has briefed it will be no deal. The EU has prepped for no deal. The EU will prioritise the integrity of the Single Market rather than grant the U.K. ‘special dispensation’ to enjoy the benefits and flout the rules just to avoid no deal. As Cameron found out there is a limit to what the EU will accept and we have reached it. The EU is bound together by Treaty and governed by rules which proscribe what the E27 countries can do and cannot do.

Right now we are in a position where we accepted the December 2017 protocols to advance the talks and we are now reneging on that commitment and are demanding we should not be bound by constraints that other countries abide by. We are threatening to close our borders on 31st Oct despite not having the capacity to do this other than by creating chaos. We are threatening our own citizens with food and medicine shortages unless the EU concede to our demands. We are proposing to erect trade barriers with European countries with which we have crucial supply chains. We have people on the radio this morning talking about ‘digging for victory’ and growing our own veg. We are two months away from Johnson going full Pol Pot and declaring ‘Year Zero’.

Personally I’m bored with it. I’m bored with being governed by cretins and I’m bored by cretins supporting this shite.

 

[Fred_Quimby]

I lived in the era of the troubles in Northern Ireland. On one side you had a section of the population who wanted a united Ireland and on the other a section who wanted to stay in the UK. The era was an awful time for all concerned and let's not forget we on the mainland suffered as well. It looked like The Good Friday Agreement had solved most of the problems and we have had a mostly peaceful time since.

I fear that Brexit will see a return to those days. We are already seeing an increase in the types of violence that were common in those days and the same divisions along sectarian lines. One section wanting to remain closely aligned to Ireland and one section wanting to break away.