Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

Weird, very weird.

See - you could not stop yourself - lol

Bet you do it again

 

[mcfc1632]

You’ve just waffled for several paragraphs there to prove yourself wrong.

The EU is faced now with the prospect of us walking away, we will be doing so apparently on 31st October.

They haven’t moved an inch.

They may do at the last minute but up to now it’s being proven that the backstop stays and we leave with no deal if we really want to.

You need to stop telling us how much you know and start demonstrating it. You cannot just come on here and say “I know loads”, “you know nothing” and then proceed to demonstrate the opposite.

Utterly wrong again - do you not think before firing off? Why not try it.

There is much commentary out there reflecting on the need for the EU not to do anything/keep its powder dry until a point in September. That is because they - as yet - do not see the prospect of a viable No-deal and are not observing the political will to enact one.

It is not hard - you do not even need to google unless you have been on some remote island for a while. The EU is aware - it is in all the newspapers and on TV - that Labour, LibDems and others are going to hold a VONC in the coming weeks and in other ways/seek to stop any prospect of No-Deal in ways that make it illegal.

Hmmm - does that reflect political will to you? Can you see that they do not need to do anything at this point - for them the machinations of self-serving residents of Westminster will hopefully do their work for them.

As is often the case with the EU - this will come down to 'late manoeuvrings'

But even that is not the only - or even the main point.

If you had read what was posted rather than just do your knee-jerk thing - I have said clearly that you cannot force another party to come to the table. The UK must prepare for No-Deal - should have been doing as a priority since June 2016. Only then does it become a viable option - only when it is a viable option can the political will to use it come to the fore - and if that does not lead to a deal that is deemed acceptable materialising - then you are at least positioned to enact it.

You have - if only IMO - been utterly wrong on this, seemingly due to a lack of understanding of what is meant, since 2016 and are now doubling-down.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I think it’s more like

Man A I think I can walk up that mountain

Man B no you can’t the eu will not let you.

Man A. OK fair enough, I won’t then.

Man A. I’m not sure if I want to walk up that mountain or not.

Man B. I think going up will be difficult.

Man A. I’ve decided I’m going up. It won’t be difficult. In fact, it’ll be the easiest climb in history.

Man B. It looks more and more difficult, especially as it’s winter. It might be easier in the spring.

Man A. I’ve decided I’m going, however risky it is and, what’s more, I’m going on the 31st, come what may.

Man B. Which way are you going up? Choose the wrong path and you’ll fall off.

Man A. No idea. I’m just going up. I won’t fall off. If I don’t make it it’ll be because people who thought I couldn’t do it have got in the way and the Europeans have thrown me off.

Man B. What happens if you die from the fall?

Man A. I won’t. I’ve decided I’m going. I’m going on the 31st. I don’t need a planned route. I’ve always said it’ll be difficult. We won the war.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Man A. I’m not sure if I want to walk up that mountain or not.

Man B. I think going up will be difficult.

Man A. I’ve decided I’m going up. It won’t be difficult. In fact, it’ll be the easiest climb in history.

Man B. It looks more and more difficult, especially as it’s winter. It might be easier in the spring.

Man A. I’ve decided I’m going, however risky it is and, what’s more, I’m going on the 31st, come what may.

Man B. Which way are you going up? Choose the wrong path and you’ll fall off.

Man A. No idea. I’m just going up. I won’t fall off. If I don’t make it it’ll be because people who thought I couldn’t do it have got in the way and the Europeans have thrown me off.

Man B. What happens if you die from the fall?

Man A. I won’t. I’ve decided I’m going. I’m going on the 31st. I don’t need a planned route. I’ve always said it’ll be difficult. We won the war.

Man A : is it bank holiday Monday?

Man As wife : shall we go for a walk up a mountain

Man A : nah bollox to that it’s a lovely day let’s go for a few beers and lunch.

 

[mcfc1632]

Leaving with No Deal and no border between the UK and RoI will undoubtedly make it much easier for illegal immigrants to get into the UK, and there will be no shortage of low paid menial jobs open to them where they will doubtless be exploited.
At the moment the RoI isn't part of Schengen largely because the UK wanted an opt out and an opt out for us is fairly meaningless without the same opt out for Ireland. In the spirit of mutual trust Ireland also secured that opt out. If we leave with no deal, we will have blown away any goodwill and I strongly suspect that Ireland will join Schengen at the earliest opportunity which is what they wanted to do in the first place. That will provide a perfectly legal route for anyone to travel from anywhere in the EU to the UK unless border infrastructure is introduced and we leave the UK/RoI Common Travel Area. Once in the UK, the soon to be booming black economy, which will thrive thanks to anticipated deregulation, will provide no shortage of opportunities for them.
Your comment about Remainers suggesting that the position of Leavers is to stop immigration is risible. Of course it's not true that Remainers suggest that ALL leavers want to stop immigration, but to deny that this isn't the view of a significant proportion of them is laughable.

@Rascal - did my post answer the questions you posed? It after all was you I promised to get back to and you that I was seeking to show respect to, by providing a full answer to the questions you posed.

@WDB - I could not give a single fuck what you think - and I accept that you make it clear that you are equally contemptuous of myself - I will just have to bear that cross and hide my disappointment.

@others I would suggest the statements:

"Your comment about Remainers suggesting that the position of Leavers is to stop immigration is risible. Of course it's not true that Remainers suggest that ALL leavers want to stop immigration, but to deny that this isn't the view of a significant proportion of them is laughable."

Provide a lesson in how people 'twist words' to seek to attack other posters

This is reference to a post where I clearly say:

"A lot of Remainers - generally, not aimed at you - lazily/deliberately seek to suggest that the position of Leavers is to STOP immigration" I do not say all - and the truth of what I assert here is proven throughout these 3 threads since 2016. I am confident that my views would be echoed by a lot of Leavers.

and, also in that post, with regard to the role of immigration in the referendum:

"Yes - for a lot of people this was a big issue." - hardly me denying it is it.

@WDB - I get it - you detest everything that I post - you simply must jump on any and every post I make to seek to demean, deride etc.

I have asked you to take if to PM - as per the CoCs - you have repeatedly refused - if you had not this post would be via PM

I have asked you to put me on ignore if I fuck you off that much - you have refused

I have limited the number of posts of yours that I respond to - to save others having to witness the exchanges. You have not reciprocated and make countless snide comments either directly in reply to my posts or indirectly though snide asides to other Remainers

I would ask again that you either take things to PM or put me on ignore - or even better - just get over me, the attention is not flattering and you need to move on with your life.

 

[mcfc1632]

It’s more like

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “You have no mountaineering skills, it’s a treacherous mountain, you’ll break your leg”

Man A “I can still walk up it”

Man B “But you’re running and you haven’t planned your route”

Man A “Ouch I’ve broken my leg”

Man B “Who would have thought it?”

Like it

Clever, projects a good opinion and is amusing

 

[west didsblue]

@Rascal - did my post answer the questions you posed? It after all was you I promised to get back to and you that I was showing respect to and seeking by providing a full answer to the questions you posed.

@WDB - I could not give a single fuck what you think - and I accept that you make it clear that you are equally contemptuous of myself - I will just have to bear that cross and hide my disappointment.

@others I would suggest the statements:

"Your comment about Remainers suggesting that the position of Leavers is to stop immigration is risible. Of course it's not true that Remainers suggest that ALL leavers want to stop immigration, but to deny that this isn't the view of a significant proportion of them is laughable."

Provide a lesson in how people 'twist words' to seek to attack other posters

This is reference to a post where I clearly say:

"A lot of Remainers - generally, not aimed at you - lazily/deliberately seek to suggest that the position of Leavers is to STOP immigration" I do not say all - and the truth of what I assert here is proven throughout these 3 threads since 2016. I am confident that my views would be echoed by a lot of Leavers.

and, also in that post, with regard to the role of immigration in the referendum:

"Yes - for a lot of people this was a big issue." - hardly me denying it is it.

@WDB - I get it you detest everything that I post - you simply must jump on any and every post I make to seek to demean, deride etc.

I have asked you to take if to PM - as per the CoCs - you have repeatedly refused - if you had not this post would be via PM

I have asked you to put me on ignore if I fuck you off that much - you have refused

I have limited the number of posts of yours that I respond to - to save others having to witness the exchanges - you have not reciprocated and make countless snide comments either directly in reply to my posts or indirectly though snide asides to other Remainers

I would ask again that you either take things to PM or put me on ignore - or even better - just get over me, the attention is not flattering and you need to move on with your life.

Oh dear...



By the way, if you want a PM exchange just fucking do it. I'm not stopping you.

 

[yerwot?]

Man (probs) A. " I rather fancy a perambulation involving a change of altitude and a drop in the old barometric pressure what? According to the jolly old OS it's Mount Good Friday Agreement, huh, a molehill at best... Time to fill the old knapsack, check, telegraph~hatemail~sun~tenalady~lucky thatcher photo~bib~waffles~more waffles~lectern~Binocs for spotting unicorns grazing the sunny uplands.....right, just need a peasant to lug this lot and orf we jolly well go......

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Not peeped in here for a bit. Seems it's all handbags and fanny-wipes again :-(

 

[Vic]

Now you are getting yourself all twisted in your desire to keep the narrative Ric as started going.

Name names - who on here did you have in mind to fit your assertion:

"Most of them don't seem to know any Remainers…."

Unless you can evidence that statement - I do not imply - I simply state that you are making that up for the convenience of seeking to push a narrative

I can tell you that, living in Wokingham which was a Remain majority, I am good friends with many Remain supporters

Hard to check back on a deleted thread for whoever might have claimed that nearly everyone they know voted Remain, but of course it was made up.

I suspect your last sentence is also made up as I very much doubt they would remain good friends if you spoke to them about the issues as you speak to opponents on here.

"Right now good friends, you really don't understand do you? Do you know why you don't understand?"

 

[Saddleworth2]

We've out civilised ourselves.

This is something that I've been thinking about a lot over the past few years but I'm starting to think that the mass spike in depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues might be related not only to better diagnostics but also to how we have moved too far away from our evolutionary boundaries too quickly.

One of my favourite concepts that Carl Sagan put forward in his books was the idea that human evolution still impacts our psychology every day today. Specifically, he wrote about the notion that humans are the type of species who REQUIRE a frontier in order to function properly - whether that frontier be the horizon or the ocean or the Moon. We don't have any frontiers any more; the whole Earth has been explored, space technology is hundreds of years away from any sort of exploratory missions, and we've crossed every ocean on the planet. Sagan postulated that this has left a deep malaise and depression on the human species, but in a sort of ghostly way. We know there's something wrong with how our society is but we just can't nail it down.

We have access to an almost unlimited amount of information now through the internet. The human brain is not designed to have unlimited access to information; pleasure hormones are sent off to the brain when you learn something new - probably a technique used evolutionary to benefit those who learned new techniques or wisened old knowledge about how or where to hunt. With unlimited access to information, we've killed that hormonal response to some degree as we build chemical resistance to it. Now we're not so much about learning, we're about "having learned". Junkies for the fix of being informed but without the time to dedicate to the learning process. We cannot process the amount of information that the world spits at us every day now through the media, social media and modern civilization. The only way we're learning to survive this neurological onslaught is by literally ignoring vast swathes of an issue in order to try and take on some level of understanding of it.

When a politician comes along and talks about "change" it inspires all of us. There's not a person reading this that doesn't understand that the world or perhaps society or perhaps people are broken, this isn't the way things are supposed to be. We're not meant to live the lives that we live, shackled to the capitalist system or nations or politics living in metropolis sized cities and working in cubicles all day. But there's also not a person reading this that deep down doesn't understand exactly WHAT is wrong, only that something is. We don't have solutions to the eternal mystery of modern civilization - why are we like this when we could have been better?

This is why politicians talk about change - it talks to something inside us that we yearn for but cannot verbalise nor identify. If they said "lower taxes" or "we'll become communist" or something then you'd have opinions on those because they're concrete solutions. However by keeping it vague they're talking about exorcising Sagan's Ghost without actually saying how it will be achieved.

Wow, a great deal of ideas and concepts in that. Some I agree with, some not so much:
The idea that we need a 'frontier' to function properly is too literal for me. If Sagan talked about a frontier in terms of a future long term objective then i could go for that. One of the better definitions of human happiness I have read is the need to have long term objectives, short term plans and moments of pleasure in the here and now.
We have not had 'new' frontiers in 20 years but I detect a change 'in the atmosphere' in the last three or four, certainly at a political level which has seeped into our consciousness.
I think social media is a double edged sword as it replaces real human engagement and in general our manners and behaviours have deteriorated because of it.

At the heart for me though is a kind of creeping corruption of the principles that made the UK a good place to live and bring up children. There is a lack of morality and human decency in our politics just now. We have a media that tells lies as its business. I'm not going to go into a political rant but I get the feeling we are no longer a kind, open, moral society that wants the best for each other. Thats at the heart of what makes me think something ain't right. I think people want change because they feel their lives could be and maybe should be significantly better than they are just now.

 

[Vic]

I think it’s more like

Man A I think I can walk up that mountain

Man B no you can’t the eu will not let you.

Man A. OK fair enough, I won’t then.

Man C. I see the EU stopped you killing yourself on that dangerous mountain.

 

[Vic]

Yes, it must be, some think 'Only with a deal' must have been on the last one.

And some think "possibly without a deal despite all the promises we'll do a deal but even without a deal we'll still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border" was on the ballot paper.

 

[hilts]

It’s more like

Man A “I think I can walk up that mountain”

Man B “You have no mountaineering skills, it’s a treacherous mountain, you’ll break your leg”

Man A “I can still walk up it”

Man B “But you’re running and you haven’t planned your route”

Man A “Ouch I’ve broken my leg”

Man B “Who would have thought it?”

Not enough input or fretting from Man B I’m afraid, you should have at least had him chaining a boulder to his leg or better setting bear traps along the route,good effort though.

 

[hilts]

Man C. I see the EU stopped you killing yourself on that dangerous mountain.

Did he have a cape? And were a swarm of remainers fawning from behind? :-)

 

[hilts]

Man (probs) A. " I rather fancy a perambulation involving a change of altitude and a drop in the old barometric pressure what? According to the jolly old OS it's Mount Good Friday Agreement, huh, a molehill at best... Time to fill the old knapsack, check, telegraph~hatemail~sun~tenalady~lucky thatcher photo~bib~waffles~more waffles~lectern~Binocs for spotting unicorns grazing the sunny uplands.....right, just need a peasant to lug this lot and orf we jolly well go......

Trust you to make it weird;-)

 

[hgblue]

Did he have a cape? And were a swarm of remainers fawning from behind? :-)

Man A was Sir Edmund Hillary and fortunately he ignored Man B ;). Every tiny step of human advancement has been opposed by a bunch of risk averse dullards trying to defend the status quo.

 

[hilts]

Not peeped in here for a bit. Seems it's all handbags and fanny-wipes again :-(

With tariffs and hygiene poverty that’s now old bucket from shed and touch your toes when it’s raining

 

[Damocles]

Wow, a great deal of ideas and concepts in that. Some I agree with, some not so much:
The idea that we need a 'frontier' to function properly is too literal for me. If Sagan talked about a frontier in terms of a future long term objective then i could go for that. One of the better definitions of human happiness I have read is the need to have long term objectives, short term plans and moments of pleasure in the here and now.
We have not had 'new' frontiers in 20 years but I detect a change 'in the atmosphere' in the last three or four, certainly at a political level which has seeped into our consciousness.
I think social media is a double edged sword as it replaces real human engagement and in general our manners and behaviours have deteriorated because of it.

At the heart for me though is a kind of creeping corruption of the principles that made the UK a good place to live and bring up children. There is a lack of morality and human decency in our politics just now. We have a media that tells lies as its business. I'm not going to go into a political rant but I get the feeling we are no longer a kind, open, moral society that wants the best for each other. Thats at the heart of what makes me think something ain't right. I think people want change because they feel their lives could be and maybe should be significantly better than they are just now.

The idea of needing a literal frontier is actually really interesting as a notion when you dig down into it. It sort of ties into your point about social media vs regular engagement too.

A frontier is important in terms of a physical boundary for a few reasons. Firstly, it spawns creativity which leads to innovation and invention. How many people were inspired by stories of the City of Gold or the Cyclops or the Chimera? Knowing that things may exist in the world outside of your comprehension or understanding is a healthy thing for inquisitive minds to ponder as it allows you to imagine all of the things that also may exist but we've not seen yet. Essentially geographical frontiers keep the mind more open than closed. Secondly, as you point out, the imaginary boundary of AI or whatever does not speak to us in the same way as the physical boundary just as the imaginary social interaction of the internet doesn't speak to us in the same way as the real-life talking. For all of our focus on art, storytelling, and imagination, the physical holds a great appeal to us psychologically.
Why do museums need guide ropes? Because we feel some sort of mental connection to others when we touch the same objects that they did, it gives us a greater understanding in a way that we can't quite explain. When you see a medieval sword then you want to pick it up, feel the weight and the balance, maybe try to hold it above your head. You appreciate the strength and dexterity needed for the previous owners to ride into battle in a much more intimate way than if you just looked at a picture of it and read that it weighs X amount of Kg. My daughter is almost a year old now and she's in that phase where kids pick everything up and eat it. It's interesting to watch her and how her mind works, having tactile responses to objects gives her a greater context and understanding of the world.

I suppose another way of putting it is that you'll never celebrate a goal as hard, watching the match on TV as you would do in a stadium.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The idea of needing a literal frontier is actually really interesting as a notion when you dig down into it. It sort of ties into your point about social media vs regular engagement too.

A frontier is important in terms of a physical boundary for a few reasons. Firstly, it spawns creativity which leads to innovation and invention. How many people were inspired by stories of the City of Gold or the Cyclops or the Chimera? Knowing that things may exist in the world outside of your comprehension or understanding is a healthy thing for inquisitive minds to ponder as it allows you to imagine all of the things that also may exist but we've not seen yet. Essentially geographical frontiers keep the mind more open than closed. Secondly, as you point out, the imaginary boundary of AI or whatever does not speak to us in the same way as the physical boundary just as the imaginary social interaction of the internet doesn't speak to us in the same way as the real-life talking. For all of our focus on art, storytelling, and imagination, the physical holds a great appeal to us psychologically.
Why do museums need guide ropes? Because we feel some sort of mental connection to others when we touch the same objects that they did, it gives us a greater understanding in a way that we can't quite explain. When you see a medieval sword then you want to pick it up, feel the weight and the balance, maybe try to hold it above your head. You appreciate the strength and dexterity needed for the previous owners to ride into battle in a much more intimate way than if you just looked at a picture of it and read that it weighs X amount of Kg. My daughter is almost a year old now and she's in that phase where kids pick everything up and eat it. It's interesting to watch her and how her mind works, having tactile responses to objects gives her a greater context and understanding of the world.

I suppose another way of putting it is that you'll never celebrate a goal as hard, watching the match on TV as you would do in a stadium.

I'm sitting here nodding to all of that. Time certainly flies, I can remember you telling us when your daughter was born - almost a year already.
There was a film I cant remember the name of, I think Joaquin Pheonix was in it, about a guy that falls in love with his AI assistant (typically voiced by Scarlett Johannson). There is a scene where a crowd of business folk are all talking into their hands free mikes - it becomes clear they are all talking to their AI assistants. Nobody is speaking to each other or even to another human. Thats where we are heading if we aren't careful!

Barack Obama said when he learned that Trump had won 'Human progress is not measured in a straight line. It zigzags'. Maybe we are approaching the bottom of a zag and an upturn is just round the corner. I hope so for my grandkids and your daughters sakes.