Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Nice to see what caring and looking after the poorest in society looks like.

It's what not being too worried about people who are determined to harm their own interests looks like.

Don't confuse it with wanting to stop them doing it.

 

[BobKowalski]

also in 1997 apparently, by the same bloke now threatening to have Bojo's advice declared unlawful by the courts

https://order-order.com/2019/07/10/...arliament-1997-avoid-cash-questions-scrutiny/

To hold a General Election. Are we holding a General Election this time? No. Johnson is using this as a delaying tactic because he doesn’t have the votes in Parliament. If you want to applaud the tactic then fine but let’s not kid ourselves.

 

[bluejon]

This Govt wasn’t directly elected. It has no majority. To govern it did a deal with the DUP to get the required majority. If it falls tomorrow and Corbyn can do deals with other parties to govern then he will be PM. This is how our constitution works.

Do you know how many times this Govt has been tested in votes in Parliament since Johnson was appointed PM? Zero. Do you know why? Because it doesn’t have votes. Which is why he is suspending Parliament. To stop the people we elected to represent us from doing just that.

Do you know what the craic would be if all of the 12 scottish tories were to switch to independent? Would that set off the motions for a new government to make itself available?

 

[Kazzydeyna]

I dont trust them at all but there is one upside to a no deal arrangement. It opens up the possibility of a proper Socialist government. I don't think we would be able to have that with a deal as the EU as it stands is anti Socialist.

Which is precisely why I have always been, and will always be suspicious of those who shout loud and proud about how left wing they are in one breath, and then shout even louder and prouder in the next breath about why we must remain in the EU.

The single biggest, and most successful lie the remain side have ever told is the one that goes along the lines of "Brexit is for the Tories and the right". Palpably false.

The EU is now, was yesterday, and will be tomorrow, a laissez-faire, "Damn the small people, they'll do as they're bloody well told" bankers and millionaires glee club.

And the saddest thing of all the last 3 years is Corbyn the hypocrite throwing his lot in with the Kinnocks, the Mays, the Blair's, and virtually every major financial institution in the world at the expense of the poorest and the weakest in our society.

Some people will do anything for an ermine overcoat. Even vote for a racist, centralising right wing cabal like the EU at the expense of millions of labour voters. (although to be fair to Jeremy, the bankers newest best mate, he probably looks at leave voters the way most of his new mates on the right do as thick, racists from "crappy northern towns")

 

[Rascal]

You're not alone, you see... THIS is all I ever wanted from a relationship with the EU.

No political bullshit. No "flags", no EU Parliament. Just a trade deal that protects the Four Freedoms for the people of Europe and zero tarriffs on trade and gives us the freedom to forge other trade alliances, without their interference, for the benefit of the taxpaying, hardworking people of the UK.

It's achievable, but not to those who want Europe to be "more". This "more" is what I disagreed with, and many others did to. We didn't want "that" Europe, we were happy with the one we had. But for others in the EU, it wasn't enough... they wanted "more".

Edward Heath told everyone what the future held during the first referendum. Did you not listen to him? Because the electorate at that time voted overwhelmingly in favour of what Heath said, which is what the EU has become. It was never ever just a trading arrangement, it was a political arrangement too. Check it out, i am sure it must be on you tube.

As i was only a kid at the time i never knew that until quite recently and it did surprise me.

 

[Metal Biker]

Edward Heath told everyone what the future held during the first referendum. Did you not listen to him? Because the electorate at that time voted overwhelmingly in favour of what Heath said, which is what the EU has become. It was never ever just a trading arrangement, it was a political arrangement too. Check it out, i am sure it must be on you tube.

As i was only a kid at the time i never knew that until quite recently and it did surprise me.

I wasn't even born, how could I have listened? I took no part in the '75 referendum.

Jesus, I was a teenager when he retired!

 

[bluejon]

Which is precisely why I have always been, and will always be suspicious of those who shout loud and proud about how left wing they are in one breath, and then shout even louder and prouder in the next breath about why we must remain in the EU.

The single biggest, and most successful lie the remain side have ever told is the one that goes along the lines of "Brexit is for the Tories and the right". Palpably false.

The EU is now, was yesterday, and will be tomorrow, a laissez-faire, "Damn the small people, they'll do as they're bloody well told" bankers and millionaires glee club.

And the saddest thing of all the last 3 years is Corbyn the hypocrite throwing his lot in with the Kinnocks, the Mays, the Blair's, and virtually every major financial institution in the world at the expense of the poorest and the weakest in our society.

Some people will do anything for an ermine overcoat. Even vote for a racist, centralising right wing cabal like the EU at the expense of millions of labour voters. (although to be fair to Jeremy, the bankers newest best mate, he probably looks at leave voters the way most of his new mates on the right do as thick, racists from "crappy northern towns")

Agree with every word you've written there (the bit in bold anyway), but they are peasants compared to the avarice and greed of the UK and US financial markets. So yes, they're cunts, but rather them than the bastards who we'll be left with when we leave.

 

[Rascal]

Which is precisely why I have always been, and will always be suspicious of those who shout loud and proud about how left wing they are in one breath, and then shout even louder and prouder in the next breath about why we must remain in the EU.

The single biggest, and most successful lie the remain side have ever told is the one that goes along the lines of "Brexit is for the Tories and the right". Palpably false.

The EU is now, was yesterday, and will be tomorrow, a laissez-faire, "Damn the small people, they'll do as they're bloody well told" bankers and millionaires glee club.

And the saddest thing of all the last 3 years is Corbyn the hypocrite throwing his lot in with the Kinnocks, the Mays, the Blair's, and virtually every major financial institution in the world at the expense of the poorest and the weakest in our society.

Some people will do anything for an ermine overcoat. Even vote for a racist, centralising right wing cabal like the EU at the expense of millions of labour voters. (although to be fair to Jeremy, the bankers newest best mate, he probably looks at leave voters the way most of his new mates on the right do as thick, racists from "crappy northern towns")

I haven't seen or read a lot of this thread, but I think you are the first person I have seen post who has the LEXIT approach.

It has been ignored from what I have seen and it is honourable and worthy of further investigation

 

[Vic]

Which is precisely why I have always been, and will always be suspicious of those who shout loud and proud about how left wing they are in one breath, and then shout even louder and prouder in the next breath about why we must remain in the EU.

The single biggest, and most successful lie the remain side have ever told is the one that goes along the lines of "Brexit is for the Tories and the right". Palpably false.

The EU is now, was yesterday, and will be tomorrow, a laissez-faire, "Damn the small people, they'll do as they're bloody well told" bankers and millionaires glee club.

And the saddest thing of all the last 3 years is Corbyn the hypocrite throwing his lot in with the Kinnocks, the Mays, the Blair's, and virtually every major financial institution in the world at the expense of the poorest and the weakest in our society.

Some people will do anything for an ermine overcoat. Even vote for a racist, centralising right wing cabal like the EU at the expense of millions of labour voters. (although to be fair to Jeremy, the bankers newest best mate, he probably looks at leave voters the way most of his new mates on the right do as thick, racists from "crappy northern towns")

Good grief. How can the EU be laissez faire with all those regulations?

 

[Metal Biker]

I haven't seen or read a lot of this thread, but I think you are the first person I have seen post who has the LEXIT approach.

It has been ignored from what I have seen and it is honourable and worthy of further investigation

Erm, hi?

 

[Rascal]

Erm, hi?

Apologies ;)

 

[BobKowalski]

They won't be laughing if Boris pulls Brexit off - see how their next Independence Day goes when the EU won't let them in.

The Scots will get the red carpet treatment from the EU but lets say Johnson ‘pulls off’ (fnarr, fnarr) a no deal Brexit. Does Scotland recognise Westminster’s authority to do this? Do they hold a referendum contrary to the wishes of Westminster on the basis that as a sovereign country they have the right to self determination?

Pass the popcorn.

 

[meltonblue]

The most worrying thing to me is I don’t think whether there’s a deal or not is the biggest issue anymore from a national context. The worst thing about the referendum and the debate that has followed it has been the erosion of empathy from either side due to both being entrenched in their own echo chambers (this thread is a prime example of it reading through). I don’t see any way now to find any kind of middle ground that both sides would be willing to accept and the chasm that it has caused in our social discourse will take a long long time to heal. Whatever deal we end up with (including none at all), I don’t think any perceived benefit is worth it and the social impact will get a lot worse still before it gets any better.

Regardless of the long term other benefits of any of the outcomes, there will be short term impacts. I know people that have already directly been impacted due to their roles being relocated and them being made redundant. I also know others that are very worried about their businesses in the event of a no deal. They don’t ultimately care if whatever side they voted “won” or “lost”, their concerns are far more immediate and life changing. I think people forget sometimes that just because for the majority there hasn’t been any noticeable difference yet, that doesn’t apply to everyone.

I’m fine with people supporting any viewpoint and outcome (I have friends on both sides of the debate, I like and respect them all and have never doubted their intentions were good), I just wish we’d all remember humility from time to time. Without it, regardless of how much we try to convince ourselves our motives are altruistic, really, we’re all just selfish twats that will forget how to truly listen.

That or we make it so we don’t have to by doing things like proroguing parliament...

 

[George Hannah]

To hold a General Election. Are we holding a General Election this time? No. Johnson is using this as a delaying tactic because he doesn’t have the votes in Parliament. If you want to applaud the tactic then fine but let’s not kid ourselves.

Bojo and Cummings would be happy if Jezzer let's them have a GE on the Brexit R Us ticket. Probably their number one option.

 

[George Hannah]

The Scots will get the red carpet treatment from the EU but lets say Johnson ‘pulls off’ (fnarr, fnarr) a no deal Brexit. Does Scotland recognise Westminster’s authority to do this? Do they hold a referendum contrary to the wishes of Westminster on the basis that as a sovereign country they have the right to self determination?

Pass the popcorn.

Not unless Boris lets them - they just want an annual independence referendum until the Scottish people get sick of telling them NO.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

I haven't seen or read a lot of this thread, but I think you are the first person I have seen post who has the LEXIT approach.

It has been ignored from what I have seen and it is honourable and worthy of further investigation

They've done a frankly brilliant job of shutting up anyone on the left who spoke against the EU, going back years. Some have been bought off (Kinnock is the obvious example). Some were systematically and constantly ridiculed, Benn etc, and many have died. The modern day left , in my humble opinion, have become less about how to help people who need it most, and more about how to beat the evil Tories. Not a bad thing in itself (beating the tories) but self defeating, as they saw the only way to beat the tories was to ape many aspects of them. Notably their perceived "economic prowess" (a sick joke but one they've happily swallowed for years.)

It's always made me laugh , and then gnash my teeth, that the narrative that only tories reject the EU has taken such a hold in this country. To be fair, they've set the trap fantastically and we've fallen into it for years.

The real joke though, is that in Greece, spain, and much of southern Europe it is the youth (hate that phrase but you know what I mean) and the left of politics that are anti EU. The banks, the businesses, the millionaire (white obviously) agri-businesses (who successfully shut out African and Asian food producers) are the EU's biggest proponents and beneficiaries.

I'm all for the long game. Get out first and foremost, find a real leader who believes in socialism (not a useful idiot ) and reshape the country. It'll take years, maybe decades, but whilst we're in the EU it will never happen.

 

[bluethrunthru]

They've done a frankly brilliant job of shutting up anyone on the left who spoke against the EU, going back years. Some have been bought off (Kinnock is the obvious example). Some were systematically and constantly ridiculed, Benn etc, and many have died. The modern day left , in my humble opinion, have become less about how to help people who need it most, and more about how to beat the evil Tories. Not a bad thing in itself (beating the tories) but self defeating, as they saw the only way to beat the tories was to ape many aspects of them. Notably their perceived "economic prowess" (a sick joke but one they've happily swallowed for years.)

It's always made me laugh , and then gnash my teeth, that the narrative that only tories reject the EU has taken such a hold in this country. To be fair, they've set the trap fantastically and we've fallen into it for years.

The real joke though, is that in Greece, spain, and much of southern Europe it is the youth (hate that phrase but you know what I mean) and the left of politics that are anti EU. The banks, the businesses, the millionaire (white obviously) agri-businesses (who successfully shut out African and Asian food producers) are the EU's biggest proponents and beneficiaries.

I'm all for the long game. Get out first and foremost, find a real leader who believes in socialism (not a useful idiot ) and reshape the country. It'll take years, maybe decades, but whilst we're in the EU it will never happen.

what happens to the economy, jobs, peoples futures etc between now and the decades to sort things out?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The most worrying thing to me is I don’t think whether there’s a deal or not is the biggest issue anymore from a national context. The worst thing about the referendum and the debate that has followed it has been the erosion of empathy from either side due to both being entrenched in their own echo chambers (this thread is a prime example of it reading through). I don’t see any way now to find any kind of middle ground that both sides would be willing to accept and the chasm that it has caused in our social discourse will take a long long time to heal. Whatever deal we end up with (including none at all), I don’t think any perceived benefit is worth it and the social impact will get a lot worse still before it gets any better.

Regardless of the long term other benefits of any of the outcomes, there will be short term impacts. I know people that have already directly been impacted due to their roles being relocated and them being made redundant. I also know others that are very worried about their businesses in the event of a no deal. They don’t ultimately care if whatever side they voted “won” or “lost”, their concerns are far more immediate and life changing. I think people forget sometimes that just because for the majority there hasn’t been any noticeable difference yet, that doesn’t apply to everyone.

I’m fine with people supporting any viewpoint and outcome (I have friends on both sides of the debate, I like and respect them all and have never doubted their intentions were good), I just wish we’d all remember humility from time to time. Without it, regardless of how much we try to convince ourselves our motives are altruistic, really, we’re all just selfish twats that will forget how to truly listen.

That or we make it so we don’t have to by doing things like proroguing parliament...

The greatest same of the,whole thing mate. Each side demonising the other to the point we cant really talk or listen. Meanwhile Boris does as he likes while we are busy insulting each other.

 

[BobKowalski]

Not unless Boris lets them - they just want an annual independence referendum until the Scottish people gets sick of telling them NO.

Ah. Not unless the appointed and unelected PM lets the Scots have their say. That will play well north of the border. So Sturgeon calls for an independence referendum and Johnson shuts them down but they hold one anyway. What happens next? Do we let the ‘referendum’ go ahead? Do we close it down? Tricky situation.

One of many ‘tricky’ situations for a minority Govt to deal with I fancy.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

what happens to the economy, jobs, peoples futures etc between now and the decades to sort things out?

It will likely be shared between various shades of right wing governments, as it has been for the last 50 years. But the key difference is they wont be able to blame their failures on "the EU" . They'll have to own them for the first time in decades.