Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

They've done a frankly brilliant job of shutting up anyone on the left who spoke against the EU, going back years. Some have been bought off (Kinnock is the obvious example). Some were systematically and constantly ridiculed, Benn etc, and many have died. The modern day left , in my humble opinion, have become less about how to help people who need it most, and more about how to beat the evil Tories. Not a bad thing in itself (beating the tories) but self defeating, as they saw the only way to beat the tories was to ape many aspects of them. Notably their perceived "economic prowess" (a sick joke but one they've happily swallowed for years.)

It's always made me laugh , and then gnash my teeth, that the narrative that only tories reject the EU has taken such a hold in this country. To be fair, they've set the trap fantastically and we've fallen into it for years.

The real joke though, is that in Greece, spain, and much of southern Europe it is the youth (hate that phrase but you know what I mean) and the left of politics that are anti EU. The banks, the businesses, the millionaire (white obviously) agri-businesses (who successfully shut out African and Asian food producers) are the EU's biggest proponents and beneficiaries.

I'm all for the long game. Get out first and foremost, find a real leader who believes in socialism (not a useful idiot ) and reshape the country. It'll take years, maybe decades, but whilst we're in the EU it will never happen.

But the largest party in the Greek Parliament, put there by the people of Greece are pro EU aren’t they?

 

[Saddleworth2]

The answer is no but then the last 3 years has seen lots of MP's and parties doing things barely ever seen before.

Pedantry will always meet sarcasm.

Drop yours and i might do the same.

Your opening line tonight was something about the right on here being giddy.

That's your own conformation bias for all to see.

Its a constant theme with remain voters and supporters, thinking they know it all.

I dont believe that to be true. However, having three years watching Brexit supporters on here and in the wider world unwilling or unable to justify Brexit beliefs without being shot down in flames by logic or facts has reinforced our self view that we may not know it all, but we are right. History will merely confirm that to be true.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I want to leave with a deal that allows us to trade with the European markets and the rest of the world.

A no deal should be the last choice.

I must be in a minority.

I don’t want to leave. We already have a deal that allows us to trade with the European markets and the rest of the world.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I don’t want to leave. We already have a deal that allows us to trade with the European markets and the rest of the world.

I reluctantly agree with @Ban-jani that we should leave, much as I believe it will damage us as a nation; as not leaving at all could damage us more, albeit not economically.

It should be ultra-soft, though. Softer than the May's conception.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I reluctantly agree with @Ban-jani that we should leave, much as I believe it will damage us as a nation; as not leaving at all could damage us more, albeit not economically.

It should be ultra-soft, though. Softer than the May's conception.

The damage has been done and is as easily repaired within the EU as it would be outwith. The option that will cause the least further damage should be chosen and that’s rescind A50.

Did you see the reports on poverty in the U.K. on News At Ten last night? Fucking heartbreaking and these C**ts want to dish out even more economic damage.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The damage has been done and is as easily repaired within the EU as it would be outwith. The option that will cause the least further damage should be chosen and that’s rescind A50.

Did you see the reports on poverty in the U.K. on News At Ten last night? Fucking heartbreaking and these C**ts want to dish out even more economic damage.

I believe A50 should be rescinded, but only as a means to effectuate a more considered and sober form of Brexit than the current madness. The referendum was a huge mistake, and was hugely flawed, but its outcome needs to be respected with as little economic damage as possible being inflicted.

 

[mcfc1632]

Nothing will change my mind that Brexit was and is a dumb idea, deeply damaging to the UK's interests.

But then there is zero evidence that can prove otherwise.

Yet Leavers (who were / are leavers for various reasons) are now getting triumphalist about the possibility of that damage happening.

But again you have missed the point about the original exchange.

I had been observing quite a few Remainers on here behaving in a 'triumphalist' manner for the last couple of years

There has been arrogance, smugness, ridiculing of leavers etc.

Followed by - on a day when things have not gone their way - angst, whinging, bottom lip quivering etc.

Corporal Jones's favourite saying comes to mind

I have generally not seen from Remainers on here any attempt at all to understand or accept that Leavers have any rights whatsoever to hold their points of view - just contempt - so please don't be surprised if we are lacking a bit of empathy for a couple of days - that is likely as long as it will last

 

[Vic]

Do you know what the craic would be if all of the 12 scottish tories were to switch to independent? Would that set off the motions for a new government to make itself available?

Not if the Government stops Parliament voting.

Assume the 12 Tories know they'd all lose their seats if there's No Deal (or from higher motives just want to avoid the damage to the UK). If they tell Corbyn they'd support him in any temporary coalition to extend the Oct 31st deadline for a GE or 2nd ref, or to revoke Article 50, he can go to the Queen and say Johnson no longer has a majority. She will say that's interesting but Johnson has to resign before I can ask you to form a government, and good luck with that because he's a slippery bastard. "Thank you ma'am. What if I just go and sit in his place in the House of Commons?"

Next question. If the PM no longer has a majority, who has the authority to agree an extension, or to revoke Article 50? What are our "normal constitutional arrangements" now? If Parliament voted to revoke, the EU just says we'll take that as the authority and Brexit is off and the only way you can pretend you've left is to put up a border in NI.

 

[Vic]

I had been observing quite a few Remainers on here behaving in a 'triumphalist' manner for the last couple of years

There has been arrogance, smugness, ridiculing of leavers etc.

Followed by - on a day when things have not gone their way - angst, whinging, bottom lip quivering etc.

Corporal Jones's favourite saying comes to mind

I have generally not seen from Remainers on here any attempt at all to understand or accept that Leavers have any rights whatsoever to hold their points of view - just contempt - so please don't be surprised if we are lacking a bit of empathy for a couple of days - that is likely as long as it will last

Ridiculing stupid arguments is not "triumphalism". It's just called thinking you're right - and on that basis you've always been the biggest triumphalist on here.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I believe A50 should be rescinded, but only as a means to effectuate a more considered and sober form of Brexit than the current madness. The referendum was a huge mistake, and was hugely flawed, but its outcome needs to be respected with as little economic damage as possible being inflicted.

Why do you respect a hugely flawed referendum?
Call it what it is. An advisory referendum that featured significant illegality on the leave side, the depths of which are still being ‘investigated’. The criminality was such that had the referendum been binding rather than advisory it would have been overturned. The police still have not admitted where Aaron Banks got his massive donation from.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Why do you respect a hugely flawed referendum?
Call it what it is. An advisory referendum that featured significant illegality on the leave side, the depths of which are still being ‘investigated’. The criminality was such that had the referendum been binding rather than advisory it would have been overturned. The police still have not admitted where Aaron Banks got his massive donation from.

Tbf, that's a bit of a mouthful as a working title.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Tbf, that's a bit of a mouthful as a working title.

Almost as bad as your user name ;-)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Why do you respect a hugely flawed referendum?
Call it what it is. An advisory referendum that featured significant illegality on the leave side, the depths of which are still being ‘investigated’. The criminality was such that had the referendum been binding rather than advisory it would have been overturned. The police still have not admitted where Aaron Banks got his massive donation from.

I respect it because 52% of people voted for it and the consequences for national unity if we don't follow its outcome will be huge.

I also don't respect our electoral.system, but I have to face reality and respect (and accept) the outcomes it delivers. It's the same principle imo.

Whichever way you cut it, roughly half the population want to leave, and they won the vote. That is the reality.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t want to leave. We already have a deal that allows us to trade with the European markets and the rest of the world.

Remaining is the best deal and I voted Remain but we voted to leave and the mandate was to leave with a deal and so that’s what we should do.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I respect it because 52% of people voted for it and the consequences for national unity if we don't follow its outcome will be huge.

I also don't respect our electoral.system, but I have to face reality and respect (and accept) the outcomes it delivers. It's the same principle imo.

Whichever way you cut it, roughly half the population want to leave, and they won the vote. That is the reality.

But 52% of the population did not vote for it... only 52% of those that voted actually voted for it. There is a massive 1/3rd of the population that didnt bother for whatever reason (probably because of the Conservative lie that the referendum was 'advisory') and even more that were denied a vote.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I respect it because 52% of people voted for it and the consequences for national unity if we don't follow its outcome will be huge.

I also don't respect our electoral.system, but I have to face reality and respect (and accept) the outcomes it delivers. It's the same principle imo.

If the investigations had been concluded and it proved that the largest donation for Leave was from a foreign government attempting to corrupt our democratic process would you still respect it?
Do you wonder why the investigation hasn’t been concluded by the police?
I know I open myself to taunts of conspiracy theory’s but it’s what I believe based on the evidence I have read. Hence, I don’t respect the result, it was as deeply flawed as the referendum.

 

[cibaman]

But 52% of the population did not vote for it... only 52% of those that voted actually voted for it. There is a massive 1/3rd of the population that didnt bother for whatever reason (probably because of the Conservative lie that the referendum was 'advisory') and even more that were denied a vote.

If you apply that principle generally then you might as well abolish most elections since it’s rare for them to produce a winner with the support of 50%+ of the population. How many of our governments, local councils etc ever received that level of support?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

But 52% of the population did not vote for it... only 52% of those that voted actually voted for it. There is a massive 1/3rd of the population that didnt bother for whatever reason (probably because of the Conservative lie that the referendum was 'advisory') and even more that were denied a vote.

If you follow that logic then every single vote in British history has no legitimacy, and in stating that I am conscious that if the youth voters had been arsed to turn up and vote in equal numbers to the over-60's then the outcome would have probably been different.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Remaining is the best deal and I voted Remain but we voted to leave and the mandate was to leave with a deal and so that’s what we should do.

Ok. You know my views on the illegality of the original referendum so put that to one side. What deal do we have a mandate for? The HOC voted in favour of triggering A50 which mandates leaving without a deal if the two sides have failed to agree one within the prescribed timescales. No deal is the only one legally mandated in A50.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

If the investigations had been concluded and it proved that the largest donation for Leave was from a foreign government attempting to corrupt our democratic process would you still respect it?
Do you wonder why the investigation hasn’t been concluded by the police?
I know I open myself to taunts of conspiracy theory’s but it’s what I believe based on the evidence I have read. Hence, I don’t respect the result, it was as deeply flawed as the referendum.

I believe the result broadly reflects sentiment in the country, which is split down the middle. If it did not, my view about the outcome would be different. I don't believe the scenario you paint should alter the broad end result, no; not least because I don't believe it greatly altered the foregoing mathematics.