Another new Brexit thread

[Rascal]

Does anyone else like spending their hard earned spare cash on constitutional matters?

If I had more than the ten bob in my pocket I would spend on it on challenging Johnsons decision to prorogue.

Our democracy is far more important than anything else.

 

[robbieh]

Do the leavers on here not feel slightly uncomfortable that the PMs biggest cheerleader is Donald Trump?

 

[Ban-jani]

I broadly agree, Remain is off the table as is a 2nd Ref(which I never really fancied anyway). But the trouble is, the MPs pushing for Brexit are not being honest. They are not saying ‘we will be worse off but we have to go through with it, so sign this’ because those that even hint at it get accused of not ‘believing’ enough

The ref result was more or less 50/50 and that is the view the government should have taken and looked at a moderate Brexit to reflect the vote. Instead they went all in with the lunatic fringe which was never going to get Parliamentary support.

The way out is to sprinkle glitter on the only deal on the table and bully that through. Which will be extremely difficult for the Opposition at it is very unusual for an Opposition to wave through a Government policy which leaves the country worse off economically, socially and with a less of a standing on the world stage

The fringe are the tail that shakes the dog. Without them there is no government and Johnson knows that. He doesn’t want the same fate as May.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

If I had more than the ten bob in my pocket I would spend on it on challenging Johnsons decision to prorogue.

Our democracy is far more important than anything else.

What a load of bollox

Democracy died when the result of a national referendum was not implemented

Presumably you like it when democracy only works in your favour ?

 

[Ban-jani]

What a load of bollox

Democracy died when the result of a national referendum was not implemented

Presumably you like it when democracy only works in your favour ?

The trouble is nobody agrees on how it should be implemented because the vote was incredibly vague. Anyway it will be implemented by October 31st.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m not really sure what the term ‘remainer’ means these days as there are lots of them who voted to Leave the EU and lots of ‘Leavers’ who didn’t. In addition, there was a Labour MP on the radio earlier who still wants to leave the EU but is disgusted with the way the PM is going about it

But I suppose if the only thing you have left is to find it ‘funny’ that the other ‘side’ as concerns about what the PM is doing then laugh away. Pretty sad though isn’t it, it was supposed to be the one of the easiest deals in history.... oh well, at least the pound has gone down, I’m sure there are plenty of people laughing and joking about that

You are blurring things

I think that there is every reason to find the angst of a lot of Remainers proper amusing - that does not mean that people are laughing at the seriousness of any situations/difficulties that the UK might face

Fuck me - if this forum is an example - Remainers have been high-handed and have demonstrated that they find the frustrations of Leavers amusing for years

 

[daztrueblue91]

I broadly agree, Remain is off the table as is a 2nd Ref(which I never really fancied anyway). But the trouble is, the MPs pushing for Brexit are not being honest. They are not saying ‘we will be worse off but we have to go through with it, so sign this’ because those that even hint at it get accused of not ‘believing’ enough

The ref result was more or less 50/50 and that is the view the government should have taken and looked at a moderate Brexit to reflect the vote. Instead they went all in with the lunatic fringe which was never going to get Parliamentary support.

The way out is to sprinkle glitter on the only deal on the table and bully that through. Which will be extremely difficult for the Opposition at it is very unusual for an Opposition to wave through a Government policy which leaves the country worse off economically, socially and with a less of a standing on the world stage

It’s the extremists of BOTH sides that have always been the problem with Brexit.

You have certain remainers whose sole intention has been to block Brexit at all costs. You then have the extreme Brexiteers who won’t accept anything other than a no deal Brexit.

The middle ground are now being galvanised to support one or the other. The moderate leave voters have a choice to side with the remainers who they see as anti-democratic or move towards the no-deal Brexit brigade.

Likewise, the moderate remainers can either join the Brexiteers who they believe have manipulated the situation by speaking of deals throughout the referendum but now wanting a no deal at all costs, or they can join the extreme remainers who want to avoid a no deal.

The language being used from both sides is only weapoising the debate ever further. Calling people Nazis, traitors, anti-democratic etc is only going to force people to become more extreme in their viewpoint, something which is dividing the country even more.

Hopefully, Johnson can get a deal and all of the moderates on both sides can come together and pass it through. Then the extremist cranks can fuck off into obscurity.

Something tells me though that if we leave with a deal, Farage will still be campaigning and claiming the will of the people has been ignored and people like Soubrey will be demanding a referendum to rejoin the EU.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The trouble is nobody agrees on how it should be implemented because the vote was incredibly vague. Anyway it will be implemented by October 31st.

I honestly believe if May was not in charge of this shit show we would have been out with a deal to leave and also a trade deal by now

 

[Blue Hefner]

It’s the extremists of BOTH sides that have always been the problem with Brexit.

You have certain remainers whose sole intention has been to block Brexit at all costs. You then have the extreme Brexiteers who won’t accept anything other than a no deal Brexit.

The middle ground are now being galvanised to support one or the other. The moderate leave voters have a choice to side with the remainers who they see as anti-democratic or move towards the no-deal Brexit brigade.

Likewise, the moderate remainers can either join the Brexiteers who they believe have manipulated the situation by speaking of deals throughout the referendum but now wanting a no deal at all costs, or they can join the extreme remainers who want to avoid a no deal.

The language being used from both sides is only weapoising the debate ever further. Calling people Nazis, traitors, anti-democratic etc is only going to force people to become more extreme in their viewpoint, something which is dividing the country even more.

Hopefully, Johnson can get a deal and all of the moderates on both sides can come together and pass it through. Then the extremist cranks can fuck off into obscurity.

Something tells me though that if we leave with a deal, Farage will still be campaigning and claiming the will of the people has been ignored and people like Soubrey will be demanding a referendum to rejoin the EU.

Again, I broadly agree with that. Even if we leave with no-deal Farage will be back in 6 months telling us all it didn’t need to be this way and asking why we just didn’t go for ‘Norway’ which he will claim he has been advocating all along

Re the ‘Remainers’ voting for a deal, that puts them in a very difficult position. They would be agreeing with a Government policy which makes us worse off than we otherwise would by staying in - all that said, Remaining won’t solve anything as the Leave campaign would start immediately and we would have zero credibility at the decision making table

We need to go for the least bad option

 

[BobKowalski]

Meanwhile back in Brussels.

‘Meetings between EU officials and the PM's sherpa David Frost yesterday, which yielded no new ideas on the backstop, have added to that sense (that no deal is more likely). Source: 'It sounds like the whole plan is just to leave everything until the last minute and then cross your fingers and hope it works.'’

 

[bluejon]

I honestly believe if May was not in charge of this shit show we would have been out with a deal to leave and also a trade deal by now

There was no way May was ever going to be able to piece a deal together that would make all sides of her party happy. Johnson just wants an outcome that keeps the cranks in his party, and in the public, happy, and fuck everyone else. He's more likely to succeed, but will completely trash our economy and world standing in the process.

 

[cibaman]

I honestly believe if May was not in charge of this shit show we would have been out with a deal to leave and also a trade deal by now

She undoubtedly make a complete mess of it. Although I can’t say I think that that any of the alternatives would have been more successful. They would have just messed up in different ways.

 

[hgblue]

I broadly agree, Remain is off the table as is a 2nd Ref(which I never really fancied anyway). But the trouble is, the MPs pushing for Brexit are not being honest. They are not saying ‘we will be worse off but we have to go through with it, so sign this’ because those that even hint at it get accused of not ‘believing’ enough

The ref result was more or less 50/50 and that is the view the government should have taken and looked at a moderate Brexit to reflect the vote. Instead they went all in with the lunatic fringe which was never going to get Parliamentary support.

The way out is to sprinkle glitter on the only deal on the table and bully that through. Which will be extremely difficult for the Opposition at it is very unusual for an Opposition to wave through a Government policy which leaves the country worse off economically, socially and with a less of a standing on the world stage

From the perspective of Leavers, in order to get this improved deal Boris needs no deal to be on the table, and Parliament was getting busy again trying to scupper that. They say they want to stop no deal, I don't believe them, this was simply a cunning ruse Remainers had hit upon to stop Brexit. Just look at the rogues gallery of avid Remainers who were behind this move. So if we can keep no deal on the table and the EU sees that this is a likely outcome we will finally find out how happy they are to see this happen, and those of us who have been saying that this is the key to getting a deal will ultimately be proved correct, and imo that is the real reason Remainers are upset.

 

[Ban-jani]

I honestly believe if May was not in charge of this shit show we would have been out with a deal to leave and also a trade deal by now

Maybe, who knows. I don’t think anyone involved did well.

Dominic Raab being in any position of power scares the shit out of me.

 

[FantasyIreland]

From the perspective of Leavers, in order to get this improved deal Boris needs no deal to be on the table, and Parliament was getting busy again trying to scupper that. They say they want to stop no deal, I don't believe them, this was simply a cunning ruse Remainers had hit upon to stop Brexit. Just look at the rogues gallery of avid Remainers who were behind this move. So if we can keep no deal on the table and the EU sees that this is a likely outcome we will finally find out how happy they are to see this happen, and those of us who have been saying that this is the key to getting a deal will ultimately be proved correct, and imo that is the real reason Remainers are upset.

Spot on.

Pure delay tactics in an effort to somehow prevent Brexit.Boris has decided it's time to put an end to the debacle.

 

[Rascal]

What a load of bollox

Democracy died when the result of a national referendum was not implemented

Presumably you like it when democracy only works in your favour ?

Presumably you think I voted remain. All that presumption is not good for your health.

Democracy did not die when the result was not implemented as the process was always going to take time, anybody who thought it was simple had clearly not grasped the complexity of it. As it happens I am fairly comfortable with no deal as I have posted previously, what I am not in favour of is our sovereign Parliament being over ridden and our MPs being nullified as that is the actions of a despot. If you believe that despotism is a price worth paying to leave the EU how do you keep a straight face and not see the contradictions as one of the accusations against the EU was that itself was anti democratic. Its hypocrisy to believe in democracy for one but not the other. I am foremost a believer in democracy as the least worst system of government, I don't think you do, I think you believe so blindly in Brexit that you are prepared to sacrifice our democracy to achieve your goal and that quite frankly is frightening. You have been radicalised by the far right and have taken leave of your senses. What is the point of Brexit at all if our parliament is used as a vechile for oppression. I want our parliament to have the right to make sure Brexit is delivered properly, I don't want it delivered by decree and subjugation.

If you really believe that being anti democratic is the way to leave an anti democratic organisation then do not be surprised if authoritarianism wins the day and we stumble blindly in to fascism.

 

[Blue Hefner]

From the perspective of Leavers, in order to get this improved deal Boris needs no deal to be on the table, and Parliament was getting busy again trying to scupper that. They say they want to stop no deal, I don't believe them, this was simply a cunning ruse Remainers had hit upon to stop Brexit. Just look at the rogues gallery of avid Remainers who were behind this move. So if we can keep no deal on the table and the EU sees that this is a likely outcome we will finally find out how happy they are to see this happen, and those of us who have been saying that this is the key to getting a deal will ultimately be proved correct, and imo that is the real reason Remainers are upset.

But do you *really* think no-deal is on the table? He said it was “a million to one” a fortnight ago

If we leave with no-deal he will be one of the shortest serving PMs in history. It is not a realist or believable position which he has taken and the EU know it. That said, just in case he is daft enough I suspect there will be some glitter sprinkled and he will try and sell it to the House. But 1) we don’t have a great recent history on pre-closing the house on what sort of deal it could live with and 2) the EU know this and are reluctant to bother if they don’t believe it will pass(source:BrexitCast, yesterday)

 

[Ban-jani]

From the perspective of Leavers, in order to get this improved deal Boris needs no deal to be on the table, and Parliament was getting busy again trying to scupper that. They say they want to stop no deal, I don't believe them, this was simply a cunning ruse Remainers had hit upon to stop Brexit. Just look at the rogues gallery of avid Remainers who were behind this move. So if we can keep no deal on the table and the EU sees that this is a likely outcome we will finally find out how happy they are to see this happen, and those of us who have been saying that this is the key to getting a deal will ultimately be proved correct, and imo that is the real reason Remainers are upset.

And what if the EU are happy to let it happen?

I’m not upset with that, if Johnson gets a better deal than the WA I will be over the moon and relieved.

I’m upset no deal could fuck up my career.

 

[cibaman]

But do you *really* think no-deal is on the table? He said it was “a million to one” a fortnight ago

If we leave with no-deal he will be one of the shortest serving PMs in history. It is not a realist or believable position which he has taken and the EU know it. That said, just in case he is daft enough I suspect there will be some glitter sprinkled and he will try and sell it to the House. But 1) we don’t have a great recent history on pre-closing the house on what sort of deal it could live with and 2) the EU know this and are reluctant to bother if they don’t believe it will pass(source:BrexitCast, yesterday)

Every time he pulls off stunts like this he just fires up the ERG, raises their expectations, and makes it more difficult for himself to negotiate a deal that they would accept

 

[George Hannah]

Meanwhile back in Brussels.

‘Meetings between EU officials and the PM's sherpa David Frost yesterday, which yielded no new ideas on the backstop, have added to that sense (that no deal is more likely). Source: 'It sounds like the whole plan is just to leave everything until the last minute and then cross your fingers and hope it works.'’

I can see why you omitted the Sunny source lol
btw - in all references to Boris doing something clever read Cummings.