Another new Brexit thread

[BlueHammer85]

The saddest thing is that the only way there will be serious protests is if it disrupts Strictly and Bake Off.

you can’t have your cake and eat it too

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Fair enough for you to state those views - but a very very big difference to someone comparing people that support Leaving the EU to Nazis - either being like Nazis or accepting being led by Nazis IMO

I use weaponise - because, from the perspective of leading negotiations, that is what I firmly believe that is what the EU have deliberately and callously done. I generally say it is the EU that have done this.

In taking that view I do not mean to trample over the centuries of valid sensitivities that exist in Ireland - it is just a simple fact (IMO) about events in 2016-2019

For me - the answer to this conundrum is straightforward

1. There needs to be a majority in Westminster to effectively implement Brexit - therefore bet the house and go for a GE to achieve that. Prepare well by establishing in the minds of those that are not closed-minded that the EU is the 'bully' and that those that are seeking to derail Brexit are undermining the will of the people. There are so many remain constituencies in the South that would still vote Tory - and so many marginals that will be affected by a LibDem/Labour split vote that I think that a majority will be won.

2. If you are successful in doing that go back to the EU and be clear that we will leave the EU on the new date that will have been agreed - probably end March 2020, with or without a deal. Secure an agreement that provides to both sides an agreed period of transition to implement arrangements for that situation - I am quite confident in that scenario the EU would agree such a transition- if not we just leave and take remedial actions.

3. As part of that agreement, respect the EU's position re the protection of the SM and agree that the only practical thing to do is to have a border down the Irish Sea. Hold a referendum in NI. It is for the people of N.I. to decide. Mind you - I suggest that Ireland should be mindful of what it wishes for - N.I. is a great strain on the Treasury

4. In 2025, or thereabouts, hold an Indyref2 on independence for Scotland - it is for the people of Scotland to decide their future. From a personal viewpoint I am, regretfully, confident that if there was to be a referendum in Scotland 3 years or later after the UK has left the EU then the vote against independence will be greater than it was the first time - I suggest people holding a different view have perhaps not thought it through

But getting back to all these Nazi slurs - it is frankly disgusting and I had thought that mods had asked for it to stop

I get your argument @mcfc1632, I always have and you've repeatedly stated it, that's true.
It may well be that you are finally getting what you wanted on the negotiating table, and the threat of a no-deal, may or may not work.
However what I have repeatedly maintained is that the Irish government stance is the only one that actually seems to have the backing of the island of Ireland and has genuinely got the people North and South and their futures together in mind.
What you describe above is a strategy. A strategy that you have advocated all along.
Your point No 1. above demonstrates to me that you are fully aware that the language you used repeatedly in here was part of that strategy.
The EU need to be seen as bullies!

I did take issue with you once, but decided thereafter that the point didn't need constant repeating, that no matter how many times you used that particular terminology, it didn't make it true.
I appreciate your view and it's not a criticism of your tactic or the tactic that you feel should have been employed, but I regard this strategy to be 'weaponising' (your word) Northern Ireland and the GFA more than anything you regard the EU to be doing.

 

[Len Rum]

I think that post is a little unfair on @kevin horlocks wand mate, as he is one of the most pragmatic, realist leavers who post regularly on this thread.

He's ok (in small doses) although he still thinks Japan and Canada ( through their trade deals with the EU) enjoy all the benefits of being a member of the single market.
@kevin horlocks wand

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

worth watching for those that believe the EU will just fold.

Did he just mention the nazi occupation of the Isle of Wight (@3:10)? WTF?

 

[grunge]

Did he just mention the nazi occupation of the Isle of Wight (@3:10)? WTF?

Yeah I think that was was just a slip of the tongue, meant the likes of Guernsey I guess.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Yeah I think that was was just a slip of the tongue, meant the likes of Guernsey I guess.

Yeah but none of the Channel Islands are a small island just off our south coast, which he goes on to say. His credibility has just dropped to zero whatever he says.

 

[grunge]

Yeah but none of the Channel Islands are a small island just off our south coast, which he goes on to say. His credibility has just dropped to zero whatever he says.

If he was dealing with facts id agree, he's not. he's dealing with opinions and attitudes on both sides of the negotiations.

And if I recall the Isle of Wight comment is just a throwaway comment saying we didn't deal with occupation.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

If he was dealing with facts id agree, he's not. he's dealing with opinions and attitudes on both sides of the negotiations.

And if I recall the Isle of Wight comment is just a throwaway comment saying we didn't deal with occupation.

Are you Phil? ;)

 

[George Hannah]

You mean the Parliament elected by the people in 2017? Didn’t realise the votes in a General Election counted for less than the votes of 140,000 Tory Party members. Democracy yay.

Well the 589 out of 650 who were elected on a manifesto commitment to honour the result of the referendum anyway.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Well the 589 out of 650 who were elected on a manifesto commitment to honour the result of the refendum anyway.

What they should really do is give everyone some 'skin in the game'. Leave with no-deal and, as a leave voter, your tax/benefits will be uplifted by the amount of GDP percentage rise that Brexit has delivered. Of course, the reverse would also be true, but that must be virtually without risk. Free money, if you will. Everyone wins, even the losers........

 

[BobKowalski]

Well the 589 out of 650 who were elected on a manifesto commitment to honour the result of the refendum anyway.

They did. They haven’t revoked A50. Also honouring means studying the terms of the exit carefully and choosing the best possible path out of the EU with a minimum of disruption. MPs represent their entire constituency. Not just the ones who voted Leave.

#theforgotton48

 

[Saddleworth2]

Too little too late, I agree, but your kind of thinking would have gone a long way if implemented at the right time in the right order.

Bit like Eric Morecambe playing the piano....
Pity I hadn't been Prime Minister instead of call me Dave.

 

[mcfc1632]

So why didn’t your report show any increases, when I said carry on, I should have said carry on without me, you’re obviously too myopic to have a debate with, good night.

No - please don't - I was enjoying the break from him being latched onto you;-)

 

[Saddleworth2]

you can’t have your cake and eat it too

Anyone that interferes with Claudia and Tess will have me to deal with.

 

[Rascal]

All these republicans, including Corbyn, wishing to live in an Absolute Monarchy.

We are heading for an absolute monarchy, Cromwell was offered the Crown and as Johnson looks like he is out to emulate him, it would not surprise me one bit if the narcissist liar sees himself as King.

In the meantime as our democracy burns the proletariat argue over the minutiae of any supposed Brexit deal, its the perfect storm, the Reichstag moment that he has maybe waited for all his life.

All hail King Piffel as him and his fellow demagogues, Trump, Bolsanaro et al herald a return to the dark days of authoritarian fascism.

 

[TheBlueDune]

Would it not be possible to be legally outside of EFTA / EEA but with a relationship that mirrored them ?
At least as a temporary measure?

Doesn't the EFTA/EEA route require freedom of movement?

Not that racist immigration prejudice influenced anybody to vote Leave. All those lovely gypsies from Romania are welcome to camp on JRM's lawn anytime they like.

That may have been why it wasn't pursued as an option. Or I may be wrong.

 

[George Hannah]

We are heading for an absolute monarchy, Cromwell was offered the Crown and as Johnson looks like he is out to emulate him, it would not surprise me one bit if the narcissist liar sees himself as King.

In the meantime as our democracy burns the proletariat argue over the minutiae of any supposed Brexit deal, its the perfect storm, the Reichstag moment that he has maybe waited for all his life.

All hail King Piffel as him and his fellow demagogues, Trump, Bolsanaro et al herald a return to the dark days of authoritarian fascism.

I think you are doing Bojo an injustice - he is not the stuff of fascist dictators

 

[TheBlueDune]

Why do you continually think that the GFA is some "weapon" the EU keep throwing up to be awkward?

Its an actual thing that needs sorted first....its an agreement ratified by the UK and Irish governments...and should be decided/implemented/discussed as such. You seem to want to ignore it.....honestly, why should it be ignored? If the EU are mentioning it its a reminder that it exists and has to be dealt with.

And I believe that it is enshrined in law that the parties (UK & Ireland) are required to maintain the GFA.

Any Boris verbal commitment wouldn't be worth the paper it isn't printed on. "Sorting it out afterwards" isn't a valid option.

Boris's track record suggesting he would want to renege at the earliest opportunity, while putting the blame on the EU.

 

[TheBlueDune]

I think you are doing Bojo an injustice - he is not the stuff of fascist dictators

He's doing a jolly good impression of one.
"All hail Boris, the guy who saved us from chaos".
Just wait until he wants to throw away the election laws after he wins the next GE.
Same as Putin.

 

[mcfc1632]

Dublin

Many many years ago - not long after joining the EEC I worked for the ACC - used to be referred to as 'the Farmers Bank' - lived in Dublin hotels - wildest time of my life.

Is the ACC still going?