Another new Brexit thread

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kevin horlocks wand said:
Well how about Jezza and what he has done in the last few days

He is advocating closing down streets and bridges and his supporters are calling for public disobedience.

Show me what he has said he wants specifically ina deal he will back. You know from the meeting they had the other day. What precisely is the deal he and his cronies will support. Nothing, not a dickie.

It’s easy to shout I don’t want this and I don’t want that. It’s a lot harder to say look this is what we want and if that comes we will support.

No throwing rocks and telling people to go to the streets to cause civil disobedience is all he is dong . The man is a twat.
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Civil disobedience is only effective with a genuine grievance and is usually spontaneous. Unless that grievance exists and is widely felt then Corbyn is screaming at the sky. Whether this suspension of Parliament (which in part was born out of civil disobedience) provokes people to act I genuinely do not know.

And if you want Corbyn or Labour’s support then I suggest they be included in the negotiations with the EU. Not as an afterthought when you get stuck trying to get votes. This negotiation has always required consensus and compromise for it to work especially when you have a minority Govt. We have consistently refused to accept this. The EU has no choice but to include its member states in the negotiation. The member states agree the EU’s negotiating mandate, reviews progress and are kept informed so when an agreement is produced Barnier is confident it will be agreed by the E27.

Contrast and compare with the bitter infighting on the UK side with Parliament (and the devolved nations) sidelined and ignored and as a last desperate act suspended. You think this is the right way to go about such an important negotiation? Shut down Parliament? Ram through whatever cobbled deal you can get at the last minute without debate and scrutiny? You think this will lead to peace and harmony breaking out or be the end of the matter? A Brexit with a deal will be resented by both Leave and Remain. A no deal Brexit is going to lead to the U.K. trying to strike temporary deals with the EU and is not sustainable.

The referendum was flawed. The negotiations with the EU were flawed and pretty much any outcome is going to lead to more trouble down the line. Right now we have a failed State, the definition of which is a State that cannot control its own political or economic systems. Suspending Parliament, the body to which we elect representatives, was the very definition of this. The executive cannot control its Parliament so they shut it down. Threatening no deal is the same. It says we are no longer in control. Extreme actions are always a sign of losing control.
 
urban genie said:
It's simple really, at the time of the referendum we had in power a tory government run by bastards who hate the lower classes
The employment rights we have as a member of the EU plus certain other rights would probably dissapear if we left, and I fully expect a johnson goveenment to fuck over the populace once no deal happens.

So a choice vote remain to stay in a system you don't particulary want to as it is far from socialist
Or
Vote leave and be fucked over even more by this breed or tory cunts

Remain was the lesser of two evils at the time, if labour had been in government I would have voted leave
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OK - well reasoned and set out - makes sense, but....

Given the situation over the last 3 years when the Conservatives have been in all sorts of disarray and there was a lot of confidence amongst left supporters that Corbyn would be elected if there was a GE - why have the left-leaning not become Leave supporters?

I really am starting to think that some of the posters that strongly support Remaining yet state they are 'hard-left' actually are just 'faux socialists' and confused
 
mcfc1632 said:
OK - well reasoned and set out - makes sense, but....

Given the situation over the last 3 years when the Conservatives have been in all sorts of disarray and there was a lot of confidence amongst left supporters that Corbyn would be elected if there was a GE - why have the left-leaning not become Leave supporters?

I really am starting to think that some of the posters that strongly support Remaining yet state they are 'hard-left' actually are just 'faux socialists' and confused
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Self interest tops all even with the caring left.
 
hilts said:
We are where we are because of remainers and the Eu, throw in a bit of political self interest from Jezza, krankie and the inability of a small minority of the Irish to grow up. Whatever happens will still be argued over.

Personally I think it’s an opportunity, will that opportunity be taken? Very doubtful. But that’s our choice.
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See everyone got thrown under the Brexit bus apart from the fuckers who voted for this shit. Oh and the ‘Irish not growing up’, you ever consider that this sort of dismissive, condescending shite is why we are in this mess?
 
Rascal said:
There is no chance of my option ever happening sadly, the EU will not countenance any chance of a Socialist Europe, it will be counter to their neo-liberal agenda.

That is one of the reasons I am comfortable with leaving, the status quo is simply untenable because the tentacles of neo-liberalism are all pervasive. I know the gamble is that by leaving we may get more of the disastrous stuff, the Tory idealogues insist on it but there is hope that the EU eats them and they are out of power for a generation. If we are out and they collapse then the promised land is in sight.
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Yep - if the opinions of how the Conservatives would become further right-leaning and implement harmful policies we can opt for a Socialist government that will be free to implement socialist policies - they cannot do that if a member of the EU

For me - all 'seriously' left-supporting posters should be supporting leave - or they need to undertake some serious reflection
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I used to really like Ruth. A true Unionist and good person. Unfortunately she took on an impossible role and it has done for her career wise. The writing was on the wall when the timing of her starting a family was known. Good luck to her for her future. Her answers about the PM were honest but classically political. Of course she asked him if he was seriously trying for a deal and of course he said yes.

What was he supposed to say, ‘No Ruth, I’m going to fuck everyone over and take us out on a No deal’.

It means unionism is pretty much dead politically in Scotland as it has lost its one capable leader. Sad but inevitable given the schism between the Scottish party and the mainstream.
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We were talking about Liz R not Ruth D, but that notwithstanding the latter went out with a whimper citing family reasons (yeah right) rather than Johnson,prorogation,no deal Brexit etc.
Her leaving speech was a timid political one meant to cause no embarassment or damage to the Tory party.
She was a Tory first and a Unionist second.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I spent a day stuck in parisian traffic three weeks ago, and there are 'Frexit' posters up everywhere. I'm not saying it's a majority view, but their is certainly a groundswell similar to ukip here 5-10 years ago, and it's not just the far right Le Pen lot either.
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In 2016 it was 45% stay, 33% leave in France, with the rest unsure. It’s now risen to 60% stay in 2019 and shows an upward trend of wanting to remain.

Also, interestingly enough considering it’s always used as a weapon to debate, Greece has always been the most in favour of staying, with often 70%+.
 
Len Rum said:
We were talking about Liz R not Ruth D, but that notwithstanding the latter went out with a whimper citing family reasons (yeah right) rather than Johnson,prorogation,no deal Brexit etc.
Her leaving speech was a timid political one meant to cause no embarassment or damage to the Tory party.
She was a Tory first and a Unionist second.
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And how do you know it wasn’t family reasons?
 
BobKowalski said:
See everyone got thrown under the Brexit bus apart from the fuckers who voted for this shit. Oh and the ‘Irish not growing up’, you ever consider that this sort of dismissive, condescending shite is why we are in this mess?
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Small minority old bean even our Irish posters would agree elements are stuck in the past. Normally I don’t see the point in looking backwards that has been the remainers job for the last 3 years. Unsurprisingly the exact point they like to look back to is the point when others started disagreeing with them. Funny that, almost like they only have self interest at their core. Some will never learn.
 
lust overlord said:
If we no deal and leave, we are far more likely to end up with a hard right Tory government,imo.

The potential further damage that will cause to the working classes as they push their unbridled capitalist "fixes",to problems of their own making,may be too much for any subsequent Labour government to reverse.
History proves this.

If gambling and hoping for the best is all we've got we're in trouble.
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Rascal said:
I cant disagree with that, there is an inherent danger of a far right government, the thing is though, the people did vote for it. So as a democrat I have to suck it up and pray it aint as bad as I fear.
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I am still confused though

Yes - I could see that risk - but it could surely only be for the term of a parliament - then we can opt for a genuinely Socialist alternative if it was proven to be that bad

So either 5 years max if we leave - or never ever having the chance if we Remain

Still not seeing why the genuine left-leaning posters are not queuing up to support leaving​
 
blueinsa said:
So the last 3 years have essentially been an anti Tory rant and fuck all to do with brexit or the EU per se, something I've said all along for many on here.

"if Labour had been in government i would have voted to leave"
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In part, yes.
Given its track record i wouldn't trust a tory government to uphold workers rights, have a fair benefits system, rein in big business and ride carte blanche over human rights.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Yep - if the opinions of how the Conservatives would become further right-leaning and implement harmful policies we can opt for a Socialist government that will be free to implement socialist policies - they cannot do that if a member of the EU

For me - all 'seriously' left-supporting posters should be supporting leave - or they need to undertake some serious reflection
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This is nonsense.... a state can own industries (and they do in many countries...) all that has to happen is that a competitive tendering process takes place and it is transparent. How do you think the Dutch French and Germans still control their own rail networks?
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
BBC Breakfast this morning ..... Brits who live in Spain now regretting voting Leave because of fears they will lose access to the Spanish health system.




YCMIU......... I can't breathe.
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​
blueinsa said:
Its been quite a while since the ex pats got rolled out.

Hopefully we get treated to a shut down of the airspace again this afternoon as its been quite a while for that one as well.
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Hmmmmm

Why on earth would Brits in Spain be thinking that way?

I can understand having genuine concerns over change - but why would they think that could be the result?

I spend quite a bit of time in Cyprus - people are not expressing those concerns there and have in the main taken the actions offered by the Cypriot authorities to ensure they are secure.

Also, a point that seems strangely missed...….

There are about 1.3m Brits living across the EU

There are approaching 4m EU citizens living in the UK

Just why would the EU do detrimental things to the UK citizens - especially as they are generally all adding benefit to the countries they live in

Suspect Project Fear is alive and well and being mobilised
 
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