Another new Brexit thread

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George Hannah said:
Honestly Rascal, which universe are you inhabiting? Brexit may not be a shooting war, but that there are sides and treachery is blindingly obvious. It is those who have set themselves above the decision of the electorate who have made it so. I am proud to be British and of our history and of our culture and of our record as a civilizing influence in the world - things that many on here despise and ignorantly dispute. If you have the good of the UK at heart maybe you should leave the Blimp labels out of your posts and reflect on the liberty you now enjoy as a consequence of the sacrifice of those who you smear with such stereotypes.
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I live in the here and now not some far flung battlefield from the days of empire. Accusations of treachery are just idiotic, nobody is being treacherous they just have a different opinion. I am proud to be British, I am proud of our history, but history is what it is and it has no bearing on our current situation, those that live in the past are hindering BREXIT and English exceptionalism is a root cause of disharmony. We are not exceptional, we are whether you like it or not a small island off the coast of a huge prosperous continent and if we accepted that reality then Brexit would be much easier to achieve. The approach to Brexit and the dealing with the UK has been full of arrogance and exceptionalism and how on earth is that approach going to find anything other than disdain from our European counterpoints. We have behaved like a small child having a hissy fit, demanding cake and eating it instead of showing a little humility and speaking like grown ups. Where has our famed common courtesy gone?
 
George Hannah said:
Honestly Rascal, which universe are you inhabiting? Brexit may not be a shooting war, but that there are sides and treachery is blindingly obvious. It is those who have set themselves above the decision of the electorate who have made it so. I am proud to be British and of our history and of our culture and of our record as a civilizing influence in the world - things that many on here despise and ignorantly dispute. If you have the good of the UK at heart maybe you should leave the Blimp labels out of your posts and reflect on the liberty you now enjoy as a consequence of the sacrifice of those who you smear with such stereotypes.
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Says the guy talking about treachery.

And colonialism as a good thing. Presumably slavery was justifiable as that's where a lot of our civilizing influence was centred.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Probably. (That said, countries are realising that an EU without the UK in it, is a big opportunity for them to win business currently going to the UK.)

But anyway, as I've repeated, I am no supporter of Boris, but I can fully understand his frustration. If the EU know we will not leave without a deal, and they have every incentive to stick to the position that their shitty deal is the only one on offer. Because our only options are then to either not leave; or accept the shitty deal. Both are good results for the EU. So why on earth would they improve the terms? There is actually a dissincentive for them to do so, since doing that would drive a worse outcome for them: Either us leaving (bad) or staying on inferior terms from the EUs perspective (bad).

Only the threat of no deal, provides any negotiating leverage at all. And that rug is being pulled from under Boris' feet.
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Hallelujah - respect

I respect your right to think that leaving the EU is utterly fucking stupid and you have always been consistent

At least you have the real world understanding to appreciate the simple facts of negotiations

Perhaps the Janet and John stuff might get through to others as it comes from an ardent Remainer this time
 
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George Hannah said:
None of that addresses the point of the post you are replying to. In addition, you do really need to learn that as far as Brexit is concerned, Parliament's decision to hold and follow the result of a referendum renders your exposition of traditional representative democracy redundant.
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No it does not, we can not change how we are governed just to suit one particular subject. Parliamentarians have the right as elected representatives of the people to act as they see fit in their interests. What is the point of Brexit at all, if it ends up destroying the traditions of our own parliament and leads to the type of demagoguery we are seeing from Johnson.

It is one of the reasons why the blindingly idiotic decision to hold a referendum was so stupid in the first place, it took power away from the legislature and in no way was that ever taking back control.

Look George I want to see Brexit happen, it has to happen now, I totally disagreed with the process as I am fervently anti-referendum but I accepted the result and It should move on, but if it destroys our own democracy in the process then the question has to be asked.....was it really all worth it?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Probably. (That said, countries are realising that an EU without the UK in it, is a big opportunity for them to win business currently going to the UK.)

But anyway, as I've repeated, I am no supporter of Boris, but I can fully understand his frustration. If the EU know we will not leave without a deal, and they have every incentive to stick to the position that their shitty deal is the only one on offer. Because our only options are then to either not leave; or accept the shitty deal. Both are good results for the EU. So why on earth would they improve the terms? There is actually a dissincentive for them to do so, since doing that would drive a worse outcome for them: Either us leaving (bad) or staying on inferior terms from the EUs perspective (bad).

Only the threat of no deal, provides any negotiating leverage at all. And that rug is being pulled from under Boris' feet.
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The problem with Johnson threatening No Deal is that it’s the preferred option for a large chunk of his party. His no deal rhetoric just ramps up the expectations for those who want no deal. Now that no deal is within their grasp, their opposition to a deal increases. Which means that if the eu were to actually offer a better deal it would be seen as a huge betrayal if he were to propose that it be accepted. He would never get it past his party. It’s feasible that he might get it through parliament relying on Labour votes, but then he would be toast.
 
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cibaman said:
The problem with Johnson threatening No Deal is that it’s the preferred option for a large chunk of his party. His no deal rhetoric just ramps up the expectations for those who want no deal. Now that no deal is within their grasp, their opposition to a deal increases. Which means that if the eu were to actually offer a better deal it would be seen as a huge betrayal if he were to propose that it be accepted. He would never get it past his party. It’s feasible that he might get it through parliament relying on Labour votes, but then he would be toast.
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Same as May really but with added bluster.
 
Gove always just admitted prices will rise under Brexit on Marr.

There's a surprise...
 
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George Hannah said:
We were the first country to abolish slavery and on balance most British people think our Empire was a force for good and I agree with them.
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It wasn't British people I had in mind but those conquered peoples whose wealth we nicked.

Leaver supports oppression of the natives. Surprised?
 
Rascal said:
I live in the here and now not some far flung battlefield from the days of empire. Accusations of treachery are just idiotic, nobody is being treacherous they just have a different opinion. I am proud to be British, I am proud of our history, but history is what it is and it has no bearing on our current situation, those that live in the past are hindering BREXIT and English exceptionalism is a root cause of disharmony. We are not exceptional, we are whether you like it or not a small island off the coast of a huge prosperous continent and if we accepted that reality then Brexit would be much easier to achieve. The approach to Brexit and the dealing with the UK has been full of arrogance and exceptionalism and how on earth is that approach going to find anything other than disdain from our European counterpoints. We have behaved like a small child having a hissy fit, demanding cake and eating it instead of showing a little humility and speaking like grown ups. Where has our famed common courtesy gone?
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I have a view that we joined a trading bloc and helped shape it to become a prosperous continent

In decades gone by the ideologues have hijacked that trading bloc and sought to expand it both in scope beyond simply trade and in footprint as it pursues an ever increasing eastwards expansion

The result is that it is on course to be a far from prosperous political union and will go the way of other past empires

We have proven that we are unable to check the trajectory and momentum of the ideologues so we need to exit

Bottom line is that May has been a disaster - looking at the way Boris is handling things now I bet she wishes she had been a bit (lot) more authoritative. I am not a Boris fan - but fuck - he is bringing a lot more focus and decisiveness.
 
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The referendum was never about whether or not an individual was a traitor. People had views on either side of the debate. Nobody leading the debate on either side said to vote against their view was the act of a traitor - not Farage, not Mayday, not Corbyn, no-one. One thing Leave did say - Farage in particular - was that had Leave lost the fight would continue. Remain lost, Remain continues the quest to Remain and now Leavers are raising the concept of treachery.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
If only we had the likes of Mike Ashley negotiating we'd be in the midst of the sunny uplands right now, having both:

(i) taken back control and;
(ii) got on with it.
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Strange that you don't think he would have done a better job than May. Hard nosed business man as opposed to a useless politician with no negotiating skill. But if it suits your agenda. Lol
 
George Hannah said:
We were the first country to abolish slavery and on balance most British people think our Empire was a force for good and I agree with them.
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I’m proud of our abolishing of slavery and Manchester’s workers’ roll in that, and proud of many aspects of our Empire. We did abolish slavery but still went round the world invading, killing and exploiting many civilisations post-slavery abolition.
 
mat said:
Give always just admitted prices will rise under Brexit on Marr.

There's a surprise...
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Give? Michael Give?
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mcfc1632 said:
Hallelujah - respect

I respect your right to think that leaving the EU is utterly fucking stupid and you have always been consistent

At least you have the real world understanding to appreciate the simple facts of negotiations

Perhaps the Janet and John stuff might get through to others as it comes from an ardent Remainer this time
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If only all the simpleton Remainers would understand that it will take the threat of penury for our own population and hardship for our expats to make the EU change their negotiating position.
 
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