Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

Which is why i have said from day one the only way to silence the debate was to leave, as per the result and then rejoin.

Leavers have been satisfied, the result respected and ultimately remain get their way.

Anything else and we have some really pissed off people but something just has to give and it might even boil down to who will take to the fucking streets less in protest.

Honestly we have been so badly let down by 650 MP's, the party political system and some terrible leadership on all sides of the house its untrue.

I genuinely fear for any election in this country from now on as whoever loses wont accept fuck all anymore.

Leaving is complicated. You can not rip out a fully EU integrated economy underpinned by a mix of EU and U.K. law without causing serious problems. It took a four year transition period to join and exiting is a damn sight harder. Sounding off at MPs and the Govt is fine but Brexiting in two years is an impossible task which is why the WA only dealt with a few key issues with everything else moved to the transition period of up to four years. If Brexiteer Tory MPs had thrown their weight behind the WA it would have passed with Labour Brexit supporting MPs getting it over the line.

 

[George Hannah]

Many other European countries didn't adopt slavery at all.

Many? Well, let's just say we abolished it before the USA, the Germans, the French, the Spanish, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Portugese, the Danes, the Turks, the Swedes and many others apart from the Greeks who abolished it the year before us. "Slavery was the default condition of humanity as soon as agriculture began, as far as we can tell. The transatlantic slave trade in the 17th and 18th centuries was unusually oppressive, but no state rejected it in principle till quite late. The French Revolution abolished slavery, but later restored it."

 

[blueish swede]

Probably. (That said, countries are realising that an EU without the UK in it, is a big opportunity for them to win business currently going to the UK.)

But anyway, as I've repeated, I am no supporter of Boris, but I can fully understand his frustration. If the EU know we will not leave without a deal, and they have every incentive to stick to the position that their shitty deal is the only one on offer. Because our only options are then to either not leave; or accept the shitty deal. Both are good results for the EU. So why on earth would they improve the terms? There is actually a dissincentive for them to do so, since doing that would drive a worse outcome for them: Either us leaving (bad) or staying on inferior terms from the EUs perspective (bad).

Only the threat of no deal, provides any negotiating leverage at all. And that rug is being pulled from under Boris' feet.

That is untrue and arises from a misunderstanding of the negotiations as it completely negates the power the UK has to propose a deal. It is a mistake that many leavers (purposefully?) make. The UK has and always has had the opportunity to propose a better deal than the EUs and therby negate any offer from the EU. If there is a better deal on the table then the EU will be obliged to accept it. The negotiations are of a politcal and economic nature - it is not a hostage situation.

 

[BobKowalski]

There's a surprise. Lol. Why bother agreeing to more meetings then? Very strange.......

Why is it strange? You think the EU from a PR point of view is going to shut down all talks and take the blame for ‘forcing’ the U.K. out with no deal? The EU will always be open for talks. We tried refusing to talk until the EU ditched the backstop. That lasted three weeks. If both sides genuinely want a deal then there will always be talks. Refusing to talk is a mugs game as Johnson found out.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Great every time I see you post I will be thinking of the grapes of wrath

Lol, you're not kidding, it's not another procedure I'd look forward to eagerly that's for sure.
But the plus side is, after two weeks, your fundament is functionally complete and arse grape free, but one needs to
weigh the similarity to having red hot garden shears rammed up it when the first dump is undertaken.
On that note, back to all this other shit;)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yes our past was shameful but we are not alone.

Don't let George hear you describe our past in those terms, mate

 

[George Hannah]

It wasn't British people I had in mind but those conquered peoples whose wealth we nicked.
Leaver supports oppression of the natives. Surprised?

So you think the British are defined as a nation of thieves and oppressors and are proud of it - if they voted to leave the EU. What an utter buffoon you are.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Strange that you don't think he would have done a better job than May. Hard nosed business man as opposed to a useless politician with no negotiating skill. But if it suits your agenda. Lol

Where did I say that he'd be no better than May?

I think even Ed Woodward would have been better than May, but that doesn't mean there would have been any other outcome.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You use different language when you talk about the British in Spain. You probably refer to them as expats in daily life. Whereas the Spanish here are immigrants right? I hope when we leave you actually stand up for the Europeans here!

OK, British immigrants in Spain, EU ones here, the terminology doesn't bother me, but I'll go with what you say.
I'll 'Stand up' for any worthwhile citizen, it's strange to suggest otherwise.

 

[hilts]

Why is it strange? You think the EU from a PR point of view is going to shut down all talks and take the blame for ‘forcing’ the U.K. out with no deal? The EU will always be open for talks. We tried refusing to talk until the EU ditched the backstop. That lasted three weeks. If both sides genuinely want a deal then there will always be talks. Refusing to talk is a mugs game as Johnson found out.

Keep hearing about this taking the blame shit as a deflection from remainers. They are openly standing firm it’s a very plausible negotiation tactic. I guess we are unlucky that the Europeans didn’t flap like babies from the off like some of our lot.

Who will blame them? I asked the other poster he couldn’t reply.

 

[BobKowalski]

The Home Secs announcement to abolish Freedom of Movement on 31st Oct, which caused panic in EU citizens here, has hit the legal buffers and being dropped. Makes you long for the days when we researched a policy to see if it is feasible prior to announcing it but no, now we announce it and then get the lawyers to shred our nonsense in public.

Morons.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I’m proud of our abolishing of slavery and Manchester’s workers’ roll in that, and proud of many aspects of our Empire. We did abolish slavery but still went round the world invading, killing and exploiting many civilisations post-slavery abolition.

Look around at the great civic Victorian buildings in any large city in the UK, especially Glasgow, Liverpool and Birmingham, and you see the spoils of the exploitation of people with more pigment in their skin. Something I'm sure George thinks we should all be very proud of.

 

[hilts]

Where did I say that he'd be no better than May?

I think even Ed Woodward would have been better than May, but that doesn't mean there would have been any other outcome.

Ed Woodward you’re just being silly now, he would have agreed to a 100 billion payment just to stay in

 

[bluethrunthru]

The Home Secs announcement to abolish Freedom of Movement on 31st Oct, which caused panic in EU citizens here, has hit the legal buffers and being dropped. Makes you long for the days when we researched a policy to see if it is feasible prior to announcing it but no, now we announce it and then get the lawyers to shred our nonsense in public.

Morons.

That will have been Patel wanting to get herself front and centre with a policy announcement.

 

[BobKowalski]

Keep hearing about this taking the blame shit as a deflection from remainers. They are openly standing firm it’s a very plausible negotiation tactic. I guess we are unlucky that the Europeans didn’t flap like babies from the off like some of our lot.

Who will blame them? I asked the other poster he couldn’t reply.

Who will blame the EU if no deal happens? The PM, The cabinet, most Tory MPs, the Brexit media...do I need to carry on?

 

[mcfc1632]

If only all the simpleton Remainers would understand that it will take the threat of penury for our own population and hardship for our expats to make the EU change their negotiating position.

Step 1 - just understand the basics - they are simple facts that you and others have not been able to absorb for years

Step 2- decide how to deploy / manage the negotiations - (Spoiler: your approach of cowering and going belly-up and begging to take whatever the EU choose is not the way to look after the UK's interest)

We get it - you are utterly transparent. Either through your determination to see us tied to the EU no matter the poor terms - or your pig-headed need to cling to a patently dumb stance on an internet forum because you cannot ever stop digging - you bang on ignoring what is obvious and factual - seemingly blind to how ridiculous you make yourself look

All good by me

 

[hilts]

Who will blame the EU if no deal happens? The PM, The cabinet, most Tory MPs, the Brexit media...do I need to carry on?

A) They will try this anyhow for the consumption of our own electorate even if they turn up for every meeting with a cigar and a personal wrap a round

B) if we have left why do they care?

Some of you believe the Eu have gone as far as they are prepared to, this is nothing more than a guess based on your pre disposed bias. This is what remainers have done for 3 years. The whole premise has been fold for fucks sake they have 2 aces we have 7 3 off suit. And bizarrely you like telling them we have 7 3 off suit.

I wouldnt mind but we have 10 jack suited.

 

[mcfc1632]

That is untrue and arises from a misunderstanding of the negotiations as it completely negates the power the UK has to propose a deal. It is a mistake that many leavers (purposefully?) make. The UK has and always has had the opportunity to propose a better deal than the EUs and therby negate any offer from the EU. If there is a better deal on the table then the EU will be obliged to accept it. The negotiations are of a politcal and economic nature - it is not a hostage situation.

Cough cough

That the UK government is now stating a better deal and the EU are refusing to even discuss it somewhat exposes your theory of what could/should happen seems to be divorced from the reality of what has/is happening

 

[aguero93:20]

Cough cough

That the UK government is now stating a better deal and the EU are refusing to even discuss it somewhat exposes your theory of what could/should happen seems to be divorced from the reality of what has/is happening

Which better deal is this that doesn't breach any red lines and does it have a majority in parliament?

 

[BobKowalski]

That is untrue and arises from a misunderstanding of the negotiations as it completely negates the power the UK has to propose a deal. It is a mistake that many leavers (purposefully?) make. The UK has and always has had the opportunity to propose a better deal than the EUs and therby negate any offer from the EU. If there is a better deal on the table then the EU will be obliged to accept it. The negotiations are of a politcal and economic nature - it is not a hostage situation.

Most in the U.K. don’t understand it. We assume this is like a business deal and business rules apply. That this is a political deal as much as anything else and different rules apply is something we do not understand hence our fetish for keeping no deal on the table.

What we should have done is take no deal off the table at the beginning of negotiations. In a negotiation you need currency and I would have traded ‘no deal threats’ for ‘trust’. Get the EU on side and treat this as a problem we needed to sort out together. How do we arrive at a solution that respects the concerns of both sides etc etc. In the end this is what happened with the Withdrawal Agreement as May’s stance was bent by reality but she also spent two years threatening the EU for domestic audience consumption and salted the earth for any compromise, a compromise that common sense would have told us was inevitable from the beginning.

We are now reduced to the Govt pushing hard on no deal, which by itself is an admission of failure, egged on by people who are now blind to everything and those who still think there is a ‘better deal’ out there. Yet a better deal based on what? The WA only deals with three items and contains the one thing we desperately want. More time to sort out the thousand and one other issues for which we still have no answers.