Another new Brexit thread

[mackenzie]

I’m gutted ;). You will wake up one day and wish you had, but by then it will be too late.

Unbelievable

 

[Ban-jani]

I’m gutted ;). You will wake up one day and wish you had, but by then it will be too late.

There isn’t a single member of the far right one Europe who isn’t for leaving the EU and against the EU.

The EU are socially and economically liberal, they’re at odds with the far right.

 

[Rascal]

You forgot to say ****!

Apologies.

****

 

[west didsblue]

The WA is a ‘lose’ for the EU as it is a step to removing the U.K. from the EU trading bloc and it is a ‘lose’ for the U.K. for the same reason. The WA deals with three issues one of which, the NI border, is a primary concern for one member state. The EU are not wild about the backstop and view it as a concession to the U.K. If the U.K. can’t live with the backstop then, as Johnson accepts, it is up to the U.K. to come up with an alternative that meets the approval of Brussels and more importantly Dublin.

Everything else is tucked away for us to enjoy a decade or two of future negotiations with the EU.

You pour scorn on May’s comms, messaging and overall strategy of confrontation and shouting at the EU to give us what we want whilst being ground down by the reality of what was available and your take away is not that we embarked on a doomed strategy of confrontation and shouting loudly but that we bent to reality and should have held out for more cake...in a document that only deals with three issues one of which is seen as existential to the island of Ireland and is now deemed non negotiable because Dublin no longer ‘trusts’ Britain to stick by its international commitments under the GFA.

And that lack of trust by Dublin and by the other leaders of the E27 is the final nail in the coffin. We either accept the WA, tarted up with a ribbon and a slap of paint if it helps, or we crash out.

There is nothing of substance left to negotiate. Johnson pledged to not talk to the EU until they dropped the backstop a stance that was met with approval on here, including yours, and yet three weeks later he is hotfooting around to Paris and Berlin with zero movement on the backstop. No one batted an eyelid at this U turn and yet you are still doubling down, or clinging too, this no deal strategy as if it was viable. You think the EU is going to move to accommodate a Govt that no longer has a majority to pass water let alone legislation and when everything it does drives a further wedge between the executive and Parliament?

No one, no matter who you are, is offering compromises to the side that advertises its weaknesses by shutting down Parliament and strengthening domestic opposition.

Don’t you know you’re responding to someone who’s read more than the introduction to negotiating pamphlet. He’s read the chapter written by the Holy Grail Black Knight.

 

[Len Rum]

'We hold all the cards' - Gove April 2016

'Everybody will have the food they need' - Gove September 2019

 

[Rascal]

'We hold all the cards' - Gove April 2016

'Everybody will have the food they need' - Gove September 2019

I am a silly **** - Gove per se

 

[Len Rum]

If you're referring to Henry VII, then I agree!

Henry VII?
That's controversial.
Although not a popular monarch he did at least bring internal peace and prosperity to England and gave her a reputation in Europe she had not enjoyed for a century.

 

[hgblue]

There isn’t a single member of the far right one Europe who isn’t for leaving the EU and against the EU.

The EU are socially and economically liberal, they’re at odds with the far right.

That was kind of my point.

 

[Ban-jani]

That was kind of my point.

You said you partly voted to leave the EU because of rising far right politics in Europe, I’m saying that the EU is the enemy of the far right and supporting the EU is the current antidote.

 

[hgblue]

You said you partly voted to leave the EU because of rising far right politics in Europe, I’m saying that the EU is the enemy of the far right and supporting the EU is the current antidote.

Nope, the federal superstate model is fuelling the rise of the far right.

 

[Ban-jani]

Nope, the federal superstate model is fuelling the rise of the far right.

Only because the far right can point to it and use it as a weapon, as it’s the opposite of them.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Only because the far right can point to it and use it as a weapon, as it’s the opposite of them.

I'm not sure the far right argument is too concerned with federalism. Last time I looked they were more upset about immigration, basic economic woes, and people who are not the same as them in general.

 

[hgblue]

Only because the far right can point to it and use it as a weapon, as it’s the opposite of them.

Just to be clear, I’m opposed to the federal model because we are 28 disparate nations with our own cultures, histories, economies and political traditions. It’s totally unrealistic to squeeze them all into a one size fits all model and expect countries as different as Greece and Italy to share the same currency and interest rates as Germany and France. It’s an idiotic concept which is politically motivated and will end in tears. For that reason, I’m out. I also think it will lead to the rise of far right parties as people seek to defend their nation state and I think this process as already begun and will get worse over time. Politicians should be accountable to their own electorate and having policies imposed on a nation against the will of that nation is dangerous and playing with fire. I’ve always believed we should be a community of sovereign nation states trading freely with one another and cooperating together in a spirit of friendship, but not a political and monetary union, and that’s why I voted to Leave.

 

[cibaman]

There aren’t the numbers in this Parliament for no deal to happen so it will be stopped via legislation or a vote of no confidence. However, Boris Johnson will win the election that follows imo.

I don’t think it’s going to be that easy to force through legislation before parliament is prorogued. When parliament forced through emergency legislation in March, May didn’t seriously try to stop it. This time I expect Johnson’s government to fight dirtier. They’ll use every possible trick to make block any bill.

And I don’t think there’s time for a no confidence vote to stop it.

 

[hgblue]

I don’t think it’s going to be that easy to force through legislation before parliament is prorogued. When parliament forced through emergency legislation in March, May didn’t seriously try to stop it. This time I expect Johnson’s government to fight dirtier. They’ll use every possible trick to make block any bill.

Vote of no confidence then?

 

[Ban-jani]

Just to be clear, I’m opposed to the federal model because we are 28 disparate nations with our own cultures, histories, economies and political traditions. It’s totally unrealistic to squeeze them all into a one size fits all model and expect countries as different as Greece and Italy to share the same currency and interest rates as Germany and France. It’s an idiotic concept which is politically motivated and will end in tears. For that reason, I’m out. I also think it will lead to the rise of far right parties as people seek to defend their nation state and I think this process as already begun and will get worse over time. Politicians should be accountable to their own electorate and having policies imposed on a nation against the will of that nation is dangerous and playing with fire. I’ve always believed we should be a community of sovereign nation states trading freely with one another and cooperating together in a spirit of friendship, but not a political and monetary union, and that’s why I voted to Leave.

I don’t think the EU is a one size fits all and I do believe our politicians have controls and we can hold them accountable. Some of them have blamed the EU when it’s really them.

That said, you’re entitled to not like the EU, I think overall they’ve done more good than bad but I don’t particularly want to remain because I have any love for them, I just think leaving with what’s on offer, May’s deal or no deal are bad options.

That said I’m all for leaving with a different deal, it just seems unlikely.

 

[George Hannah]

In Edwards Heath view when he took us into the then common market part of the joining was always about closer political integration, you can find him saying it on you tube. It was always going to be more than a simple trading bloc. That politically it has not been such a success is another story, but it was always part of joining.

I am not saying that Edward Heaths conclusion was right or wrong, I am simply stating a fact.

That the was the deal that dared not speak its name.

 

[blueparrot]

Have you seen the latest opinion polls?

Yes, the thing with polls is they don’t tell you whats happening in individual seats, It’s highly unlikely they would get anywhere near the 13 seats they got in Scotland no matter what the polls say. The triple whammy of Brexit, Johnson and Davidson they will be lucky to get 3.
They will have seats they have taken from the Liberals recently a few Brexit party votes will see them swing back. So 34% doesn’t translate to seats. Its 3% down so if they lose seats to SNP and liberals they would need to be the main beneficiary of lost labour seats. I have no idea how many labour seats Conservatives were in second place and were winnable.
There will be no working majority either way so it will depend on those best placed to make deals and the tories only have the 10 or so DUP seats to count on.

 

[cibaman]

Vote of no confidence then?

If they were serious about using a vote of confidence to oust Johnson they would have to be ready to press the button tomorrow. They would have sorted out who was going to be interim PM and made sure that they had the necessary votes. They seem to have given up on forming an interim government

 

[hgblue]

If they were serious about using a vote of confidence to oust Johnson they would have to be ready to press the button tomorrow. They would have sorted out who was going to be interim PM and made sure that they had the necessary votes. They seem to have given up on forming an interim government

Nothing to do with the fact that the Tories are now way ahead in the opinion polls and they fear a backlash from Leave voters? ;)