Another new Brexit thread

[hilts]

I stand corrected mate .You're quite correct. The last few years have all been about soaking the rich. I guess we had to because the taxes they were asked to pay 20-30 years ago were so light in comparison.

It was a miracle that we used to offer free prescriptions, free spectacles, free dental care, free university, subsidised social housing, AND pay average working people enough money to allow them to buy a house, run a car, and have a holiday every summer until the mid 70's. Then we joined the EEC. Where did it all go wrong?

Your memory of the 70’s is a bit cloudy mate:-)

 

[joe123]

Johnson would have no problem getting what he wants through if it wasn’t a shit idea that parliament is opposed to.

 

[meltonblue]

I have read it, what power does our pm have in these negotiations - he does what the president of the eu tells him, unless the House of Commons tells him

We are a laughing stock. How on earth does this provision assist in any way with the pm negotiating a good deal with the eu, something seemingly we all want but when it comes to it the truth is many don’t.

It completely undermines the position of the prime minister and his ability to negotiate any deal,

Funny how the eu seem happy to work through the president but the uk doesn’t anymore.

The president can only say what the member states all agree to, they haven’t really got power either in this.

In terms of ourselves though, ultimately that is down to our own current inept government. They aren’t powerful enough from both buggering up the last election and also from the splits in their own party.

Remember, most of this extension has been wasted by them electing a new leader. As much as Johnson is referring to it as potentially another “pointless” delay, they’ve had very little time to suggest any alternatives to the WA (if they actually have any). If they did and they were credible, I would have thought they’d have wanted longer themselves and certainly not have prorogued parliament...

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The president can only say what the member states all agree to, they haven’t really got power either in this.

In terms of ourselves though, ultimately that is down to our own current inept government. They aren’t powerful enough from both buggering up the last election and also from the splits in their own party.

Remember, most of this extension has been wasted by them electing a new leader. As much as Johnson is referring to it as potentially another “pointless” delay, they’ve had very little time to suggest any alternatives to the WA (if they actually have any). If they did and they were credible, I would have thought they’d have wanted longer themselves and certainly not have prorogued parliament...

Fair enough , I just want a resolution. The continual extensions are getting so silly we may as well have just revoked and had the debate again.

Meanwhile businesses will have prepared for two false dawns now and had to spend time and money working towards a date that just gets moved. Brexit May be bad but I am certain this constant uncertainty is worse.

 

[aguero93:20]

Sadly if you want to read the book it's currently £500 + just for a kindle edition on Amazon, if not you'll just have to follow the Youtube links provided for Boulton's quote.

Still no link. Awful shame tbh.

 

[aguero93:20]

A case of a turkey voting for Christmas i think.

The Turkey voted for the axe, not Brexit and would appreciate it if you made that differentiation.

 

[aguero93:20]

Dictionary gone rogue as well lol

But not your (unwritten) constitution.

 

[meltonblue]

Fair enough , I just want a resolution. The continual extensions are getting so silly we may as well have just revoked and had the debate again.

Meanwhile businesses will have prepared for two false dawns now and had to spend time and money working towards a date that just gets moved. Brexit May be bad but I am certain this constant uncertainty is worse.

I agree with that to an extent tbh. The business I work for has spent a lot on Brexit provisions. There is still an awful lot of unknowns though even in the case of a no deal. Personally I’d take a three month extension and a deal over no deal every time.

I do honestly think this is going to end up with no deal or revoke though post an election unless Cummings and Johnson can somehow wangle an extension (which I think they actually would want) out of the machinations.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

As always, along with Dublin and their discretionary funding...

Saucer of milk for Aguero 93:20 please.
Meaoooow!

 

[aguero93:20]

I think you need to read the very next bit...

Or any of the ECJ's judgements afterwards.

 

[aguero93:20]

Saucer of milk for Aguero 93:20 please.
Meaoooow!

We fund ourselves bud, unlike you :)

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Excellent article by Peter Foster. It may be a long read but it’s a good one.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/peter-foster-brexit-longread

Good, sober, well-balanced article.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Yep funny how on the eu side they are happy for the president to do things on behalf of the eu , yet in this country we are at the stage where the pm has no power at all.

Good point. There are a lot of folk on all sides that seem happy with a dictatorship when it's dictating their viewpoint.

 

[BobKowalski]

Well he needs to call an election then ASAP

And I have no idea how this legislation assists us getting any deal with the eu.

He can’t do that either. He needs Parliaments consent by a two thirds majority or lose a vote of no confidence but for the VONC he needs Labour to call for the vote. The aim does seem to be to push Parliament towards an election but Parliament will want to take a no deal exit on the 31st Oct off the table first.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

He can’t do that either. He needs Parliaments consent by a two thirds majority or lose a vote of no confidence but for the VONC he needs Labour to call for the vote. The aim does seem to be to push Parliament towards an election but Parliament will want to take a no deal exit on the 31st Oct off the table first.

No apparently he can call a vote of no confidence in himself as stupid as that sounds if he feels the govt cannot function.

 

[meltonblue]

Good point. There are a lot of folk on all sides that seem happy with a dictatorship when it's dictating their viewpoint.

There isn’t though. If you take even just the decision to extend, that has to be agreed by all member states.

Let’s not overestimate the power of the presidency of the EU. I doubt most people would even know who is president of the council and who is of the commission without googling to make sure they don’t mix them up (perhaps after three years of Brexit debate they could!) and I highly doubt they’d be able to say their predecessors.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

He can’t do that either. He needs Parliaments consent by a two thirds majority or lose a vote of no confidence but for the VONC he needs Labour to call for the vote. The aim does seem to be to push Parliament towards an election but Parliament will want to take a no deal exit on the 31st Oct off the table first.

Could The plot to take no deal off the table is a plan conjured up with the eu by remainers to stay in. Play it out

Parliament is successful in taking no deal off the table

Eu says we are not changing the withdrawal Agreement

Parliament votes down again the only deal on offer

What is left other than to revoke as there is nothing left that can be done.

Remain check mate.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

There isn’t though. If you take even just the decision to extend, that has to be agreed by all member states.

Let’s not overestimate the power of the presidency of the EU. I doubt most people would even know who is president of the council and who is of the commission without googling to make sure they don’t mix them up (perhaps after three years of Brexit debate they could!) and I highly doubt they’d be able to say their predecessors.

Sorry I'm wrong.its just leavers / BJ that are dictatorial. You'll have to excuse me for going off message and attempting impartiality there.

 

[Rascal]

Bodies fall and winged spirits rise in a towering sculpture in Dublin’s Garden of Remembrance – dedicated to the people who gave their lives for Irish freedom. Eight years ago, a reigning British monarch bowed her head and stood in silence before this tribute. At a state dinner in Dublin Castle, dripping in diamonds, she called us “friends” in our own language.

The country was still reeling from recession, with waves of young Irish people still emigrating, many to the UK. David Cameron, the man who would gamble with Britain’s future and lose, prophesised that the visit would “set the seal on what is already a very strong relationship between our two countries, but a relationship I believe can get even stronger still”.

A lot has changed. Since becoming prime minister, Boris Johnson has threatened a no-deal Brexit – with all the ensuing ramifications for both countries – if Ireland didn’t drop the backstop, an insurance policy painstakingly negotiated between the EU and Britain to prevent the return to a hard border on the island of Ireland and to protect a fragile peace. Last month a bomb targeting police officers went off near the border.

There is a palpable fear that the conflict in the north could be reignited

There is an expectation among Brexiteers that Ireland must cave. “Why should we?” an Irish friend asked me bluntly over the phone from London, where he has worked for nearly a decade. “What good is that meant to do us?”

“There is no secret cabal of Irish people that think we should all just bend over for Britain,” he said. “I don’t think it’s acceptable for the Irish government to shirk its responsibility to people who by rights are Irish.” The sentiment among other friends was the same. “I’m no fan of this [Irish] government but they’ve played a steady hand on Brexit,” an Irish historian told me. “It shows the depth of Tory ignorance on Ireland.”


No viable alternatives have been offered by Britain to the backstop. Brexit party members and the European Research Group have already made it clear that if Johnson succeeds in getting rid of the backstop, they still won’t accept the deal. If a hard border returns to Ireland, it will be because Brexiteers used peace as a bargaining chip and risked the futures of countless people.

At best, many Brexiteers seem to be hoping that Johnson’s game of chicken will cause Ireland to swerve on its commitment to the backstop. There is a sense that Ireland is being set up as a scapegoat for the fallout from a no-deal exit. Fringe political groups in Ireland aligned with the anti-EU far right are already stoking the xenophobia that in part fuelled Brexit, and British rightwing figures have been actively trying to rally anti-EU sentiment in Ireland.

Despite this, Irish support for the EU remains strong. Irish people know the shortcomings of our current government, which is failing to tackle a deepening housing crisis resulting in rising homelessness and inequality. But there is little doubt that Ireland was more prepared for Brexit than the British themselves. The government is firmly standing its ground – with public and political support.

Boris Johnson is playing politics with Northern Ireland’s ‘delicate balance’

When Brexiteers boast about defending the will of the people, they seem to forget that a majority in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU and support the backstop (although the latter has less support among hardline unionists).

Before Brexit, I never thought a united Ireland would be something seriously discussed as a possibility within our lifetime. Now it is getting widespread consideration.

There is a palpable fear that the conflict in the north could be reignited by the British government’s refusal to accept the backstop, the continued breakdown of power-sharing in Stormont, the hundreds of UK police that could reportedly be deployed to the border in the event of no deal, and recent attacks by the New IRA. As the political system in Britain seems to be fracturing, in Ireland the main parties have remained unified in support for the backstop, as have the major pro-remain parties in the north, which see it as key to protecting the peace.

There was concern in the voice of a respected Irish journalist on the radio recently when pressing the deputy prime minister, Simon Coveney, on whether the government was engaging with Britain about contingency plans for a deal. The risks to our security and to our economy are very real. In the north, thousands of jobs could be lost. Coveney was clear that while contingency plans were definitely in place, no side-deal could be brokered and Ireland was keeping its commitment to protecting the Good Friday agreement.

When it was suggested that Ireland rejoin the UK, we were just about able to laugh it off. But attempts to blame Ireland for a no-deal fallout aren’t a joke. Centuries of British policies put Irish lives at risk for the benefit of an empire. The British cabinet now includes people who wanted to threaten Ireland with food shortages and who have called the Good Friday agreement a “mortal stain”. There is a feeling of active hostility and a complete disregard for our security.



“The Brits are at it again”, we say to ourselves with gallows humour. This is not anger at the everyday British people who will also bear the brunt of a no-deal Brexit: many of us have British relatives and friends; we are neighbours. But there is an anger and frustration at the ongoing ignorance or denial of history and the real risk of a return to conflict.

From a place of great privilege, people like Boris Johnson are posing as “men of the people” – yet are happy to risk the consequences of a no deal because these consequences do not threaten their lives. Meanwhile, Brexiteers gamble with the security of Ireland and the futures of people on both sides of the border.

• Caelainn Hogan is an Irish journalist and author of Republic of Shame



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/02/ireland-brexiteers-peace-border-britain

Im not normally a fan of the Guardian, but this is worth a read.

 

[BobKowalski]

Good point. There are a lot of folk on all sides that seem happy with a dictatorship when it's dictating their viewpoint.

Parliament elected by the people is a dictatorship? Bold take.

Worth pointing out that to take Benn’s proposal forward it has to win a majority. The people we elect do get to vote on this.