Another new Brexit thread

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In Chapter 3,256 of ‘Brexit. This isn’t going to Plan’ Telegraph reporting the current talks with the EU are a sham.

‘Inside Brexit War Cabinet:
- Dominic Cummings described EU negotiation as "a sham" in internal strategy meetings, per two highly placed sources.
- AG Cox warned Johnson it was "complete fantasy" to think EU would bin backstop’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ooms-leak-reveals-dominic-cummings-considers/

Foster is doing a Twitter thread that breaks down the story for those interested

 
BobKowalski said:
In Chapter 3,256 of ‘Brexit. This isn’t going to Plan’ Telegraph reporting the current talks with the EU are a sham.

‘Inside Brexit War Cabinet:
- Dominic Cummings described EU negotiation as "a sham" in internal strategy meetings, per two highly placed sources.
- AG Cox warned Johnson it was "complete fantasy" to think EU would bin backstop’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ooms-leak-reveals-dominic-cummings-considers/

Foster is doing a Twitter thread that breaks down the story for those interested

Click to expand...

Thank God for twitter.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I can totally sympathise with that view tbh, but I think that some of the remain lies/exaggerations of the past are to blame for these genuine warnings going unheeded.
Click to expand...

As someone who voted Remain, I’ve been disappointed with the response ever since the referendum (and the campaign on the run up to it). I thought there was a complete lack of emotional and social intelligence to think that people might change their minds if you either tried to scare them into it or accuse them of being either stupid or racist (or stupidly racist...), instead of truly listening and attempting to understand the real root causes of peoples legitimate concerns.

It’s got to the stage now that people are willing to accept far more as long as it aligns to their desired narrative than ever before. If you then add in people like politicians and journalists either blurring the truth or increasingly, openly lying to feed that narrative (when they should exist to do the exact opposite), then the whole thing becomes very dangerous and something I don’t think were really going to recover as a society from for an awfully long time yet. I’m incredibly concerned by some of the actions of Johnson and Cummings that, for some leave voters, are not just accepted, but actively supported.

In terms of the lies and exaggerations, particularly in the run up to the referendum on the remain side, part of the issue was that not enough was done on the benefits (instead it was run as a negative campaign throughout) and not enough was done either to debunk any of the myths around what the EU was being blamed for at the time, nor openness about its issues. I get it, Cameron was never going to say “yeah, that’s actually our fault, not the EUs” about a lot of things when he’s running the government. It’s why it still depresses me that Corbyn was the opposition leader at the time, as that role was perfectly placed to do it. Of all the times to have a a eurosceptic badly pretending to be a remainer fulfilling it...!
 
meltonblue said:
As someone who voted Remain, I’ve been disappointed with the response ever since the referendum (and the campaign on the run up to it). I thought there was a complete lack of emotional and social intelligence to think that people might change their minds if you either tried to scare them into it or accuse them of being either stupid or racist (or stupidly racist...), instead of truly listening and attempting to understand the real root causes of peoples legitimate concerns.

It’s got to the stage now that people are willing to accept far more as long as it aligns to their desired narrative than ever before. If you then add in people like politicians and journalists either blurring the truth or increasingly, openly lying to feed that narrative (when they should exist to do the exact opposite), then the whole thing becomes very dangerous and something I don’t think were really going to recover as a society from for an awfully long time yet. I’m incredibly concerned by some of the actions of Johnson and Cummings that, for some leave voters, are not just accepted, but actively supported.

In terms of the lies and exaggerations, particularly in the run up to the referendum on the remain side, part of the issue was that not enough was done on the benefits (instead it was run as a negative campaign throughout) and not enough was done either to debunk any of the myths around what the EU was being blamed for at the time, nor openness about its issues. I get it, Cameron was never going to say “yeah, that’s actually our fault, not the EUs” about a lot of things when he’s running the government. It’s why it still depresses me that Corbyn was the opposition leader at the time, as that role was perfectly placed to do it. Of all the times to have a a eurosceptic badly pretending to be a remainer fulfilling it...!
Click to expand...
Can't disagree with any of that. I think remain lost when they decided to get into the gutter with the leave campaign. I share your faith that the public could have discerned the truth if anyone bothered to tell it.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Can't disagree with any of that. I think remain lost when they decided to get into the gutter with the leave campaign. I share your faith that the public could have discerned the truth if anyone bothered to tell it.
Click to expand...

Exactly that. I do still wonder what the underlying motives were for a few people on both sides, there’s very little altruism in politics nowadays...
 
So according to Tony Lloyd on Newsnight Labour will turn down the chance for a GE and rule out No Deal if Boris is defeated and he tries to dissolve Parliament. If that is going to happen Brexit and Boris and the Tories are history if the Remainers win tomorrow - will their rebels really see it through?
 
This is some juicy meat from Foster/Telegraph no wonder No 10 are putting out a statement that this is all ‘categoric lies’.

 
This is a timely leak given the vote tomorrow...

‘@BorisJohnson @prospect_uk @michaelgove @MichelBarnier MPs pondering the sincerity of ministers promises that a 'deal is in the wind' should ask themselves, 'what deal?' What does it look like? Where are the texts and the documents? Because Whitehall is flat out drafting 'mini deals' they 'hope' the EU will accept.‘ @telegraph
 
meltonblue said:
As someone who voted Remain, I’ve been disappointed with the response ever since the referendum (and the campaign on the run up to it). I thought there was a complete lack of emotional and social intelligence to think that people might change their minds if you either tried to scare them into it or accuse them of being either stupid or racist (or stupidly racist...), instead of truly listening and attempting to understand the real root causes of peoples legitimate concerns.

It’s got to the stage now that people are willing to accept far more as long as it aligns to their desired narrative than ever before. If you then add in people like politicians and journalists either blurring the truth or increasingly, openly lying to feed that narrative (when they should exist to do the exact opposite), then the whole thing becomes very dangerous and something I don’t think were really going to recover as a society from for an awfully long time yet. I’m incredibly concerned by some of the actions of Johnson and Cummings that, for some leave voters, are not just accepted, but actively supported.

In terms of the lies and exaggerations, particularly in the run up to the referendum on the remain side, part of the issue was that not enough was done on the benefits (instead it was run as a negative campaign throughout) and not enough was done either to debunk any of the myths around what the EU was being blamed for at the time, nor openness about its issues. I get it, Cameron was never going to say “yeah, that’s actually our fault, not the EUs” about a lot of things when he’s running the government. It’s why it still depresses me that Corbyn was the opposition leader at the time, as that role was perfectly placed to do it. Of all the times to have a a eurosceptic badly pretending to be a remainer fulfilling it...!
Click to expand...
The trouble is, it’s far easier to run a campaign of slogans that just get repeated and stick in the psyche.

The Remain side debunking and having to disprove each slogan means they are losing all the time.

The leave campaign doesn’t need to explain it just puts out a different slogan and keeps them coming.

I’m not sure if it can work as effectively the other way around.

It’s the way Trump operates. Find a new bogeyman and keep hammering the message out about them.
 
BobKowalski said:
This is a timely leak given the vote tomorrow...

‘@BorisJohnson @prospect_uk @michaelgove @MichelBarnier MPs pondering the sincerity of ministers promises that a 'deal is in the wind' should ask themselves, 'what deal?' What does it look like? Where are the texts and the documents? Because Whitehall is flat out drafting 'mini deals' they 'hope' the EU will accept.‘ @telegraph
Click to expand...

The heart of this story is that Johnson and the Govt are lying about trying to get a ‘revised deal’ and are hoping that the EU will show willing in helping out the U.K. via mini side deals to keep the country running. Remarkable stuff.
 
BobKowalski said:
The heart of this story is that Johnson and the Govt are lying about trying to get a ‘revised deal’ and are hoping that the EU will show willing in helping out the U.K. via mini side deals to keep the country running. Remarkable stuff.
Click to expand...
No way. Well the sneaky sneaksters.
Never saw that one coming. Hope the EU don’t cop it.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
No way. Well the sneaky sneaksters.
Never saw that one coming. Hope the EU don’t cop it.
Click to expand...


Its why the EU are standing firm and asking Johnson and/or his envoy to in effect "show them the money" - there are no discussions going on there are no proposals there is no movement and the EU tactic is clear - show Johnson up for yet more lies.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
The trouble is, it’s far easier to run a campaign of slogans that just get repeated and stick in the psyche.

The Remain side debunking and having to disprove each slogan means they are losing all the time.

The leave campaign doesn’t need to explain it just puts out a different slogan and keeps them coming.

I’m not sure if it can work as effectively the other way around.

It’s the way Trump operates. Find a new bogeyman and keep hammering the message out about them.
Click to expand...

Thats why I mentioned Corbyn though. He could have debunked some of it and made Cameron the bogeyman given a lot that was thrown in their direction was actually domestic policy choices (Johnson is still at it...). The problem was both the negativity of the incumbent governments message coupled by the incompetence of the opposition leader.
 
What is frightening the crap out of me is that both leaders are only really giving full speeches to either their own rallies (mostly Corbyn) or just to their social media followers (both). The legitimising filter of the national media (and that isn't any single channel of media, the combination of lots of different viewpoints provides the filter) is completely gone. They're only answering questions they want to answer, and that's dangerous as fuck. There's no proper discussion or debate, it's gone.
 
BobKowalski said:
The heart of this story is that Johnson and the Govt are lying about trying to get a ‘revised deal’ and are hoping that the EU will show willing in helping out the U.K. via mini side deals to keep the country running. Remarkable stuff.
Click to expand...

I’m liking your Rebel Alliance analogy. I’m an Ewok right now, standing near the princess on the runway, cheering the pilots off with a dreaded feeling.

It’s begun. There is a weak spot there. They could blow up the whole Death Star.
 
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