Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

He's probably one of the best and most intelligent proponents of remain out there. If he could only direct his efforts into winning converts rather than just arguments he'd be truly great. Sadly his frustration with the stupidity of anyone who doesn't agree with him colours his approach and negates his impact. The tragedy of this is he then ends up like Farage, just preaching to the hardcore.

He can only play what is in front of him. Why don't you call him and go over your views. I'm sure you would make a better fist of it than most and at least inject a bit of balance.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

He can only play what is in front of him. Why don't you call him and go over your views. I'm sure you would make a better fist of it than most and at least inject a bit of balance.

Haha, I'd end up agreeing with him on nearly everything and still saying I think we should leave - he'd have me straight into loony category.

 

[mcfc1632]

No comfort to either yourself or leavers I'm sure, but I suspect we'll end up with a very slightly modified version of mays deal that allows both the EU and BJ to save face.

Yep - there will be a form of fettering of the backstop within the PD

But not if no-deal is blocked

 

[Saddleworth2]

Unlike the rest of Europe out last experience of beng conquered was more than 1000 years ago, we are exceptional.

And there you have it. WTF. Anyone that thinks we are exceptional in the here and now needs to have a serious lie down.

 

[Rascal]

Great Britain is truly exceptional in many historic respects and one is not cowering in front of bullies - just remind me who was travelling on Swedish railways during WW2, or who supplied the iron for the Ruhr armaments factories.

So you really are saying because we have not been invaded since 1797 and the Swedes who were neutral sold Iron ore to our enemy we should be treated as an exceptional case?

Really

 

[mcfc1632]

what do you think todays emergency cabinet and Downing Street statement was about? Party discipline has gone - like an onion the layers are peeling away. You can't threaten people with the sack when they have put their notice in already however they can have their revenge as they go out of the door.

Think you are missing the point

The gamble will be the GE - but if successful he does not want to have MPs back at Westminster that will carry on this farce

 

[Saddleworth2]

Haha, I'd end up agreeing with him on nearly everything and still saying I think we should leave - he'd have me straight into loony category.

At least you admit it mate.

 

[lust overlord]

And there you have it. WTF. Anyone that thinks we are exceptional in the here and now needs to have a serious lie down.

Oh,there are millions of exceptional people living here.
Unfortunately the only exceptional thing about our leaders is how poor they are.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm not going to argue with you as I think the very thing that you regard as being to 'look after us' is the thing I find most repugnant. I happen to feel we can look after ourselves and still be friends with others. This I feel is an adult way to exist.

We have all seen people that surprisingly at their age still need to be suckled and 'remain' latched on

 

[Saddleworth2]

Oh,there are millions of exceptional people living here.
Unfortunately the only exceptional thing about our leaders is how poor they are.

What measure would you use to prove our 'exceptional' status?

 

[robbieh]

So you really are saying because we have not been invaded since 1797 and the Swedes who were neutral sold Iron ore to our enemy we should be treated as an exceptional case?

Really

Some people's lack of historical nuance is extraordinary. We really are in trouble with half the country thinking we saw of Hitler. Napoleon all by ourselves.

 

[mcfc1632]

No. It's that demographic again. The EU haters eventually die out.

But first we educate our children

 

[BobKowalski]

No doubt if No Deal happens there will be a big impact and not a positive one either, but taking No Deal off the table during negotiations with the EU isn't a wise idea IMO. I said earlier that I don't believe Johnson wants us out without a deal - he wants us out with a better deal than May's deal.

The WA only deals with three issues. Citizens rights, the divorce bill and NI border. So what exactly is this better deal and for whom? The EU aren’t going to accept a worse deal. Maybe a few billions less at a push but on the existential point that matters, the NI border, there is no possibility of them accepting the removal of the backstop unless we propose an alternative that is credible. If we do that then fine. Trouble is we don’t have a credible alternative. Which is why we are stuck. If we no deal the NI problem is still there. None of the issues that currently bedevil us disappear. They just sit there waiting for us to engage again in negotiations. The only difference is we are now trying to keep the country running smoothly and to do that requires the goodwill of organisation and the countries we have just pissed off.

There is a history of us threatening to leave unless we get what we wanted, and by and large we did, until we then asked to break the fundamental rules of the bloc and other countries said no. So we voted to leave. Now we are threatening to leave in the messiest way possible because again we are not getting what we want and again we are at point of them saying no. So we will leave in the messiest way possible to the detriment of everyone. It’s negotiation in the form of a toddler tantrum.

 

[George Hannah]

The Cameron Govt has been replaced twice. Labour committed in their manifesto in 2017 to only leave with a deal. If a week is a long time in politics then three plus years is an eternity. Events, dear boy, events.

both Cameron replacements ramped up their Brexit commitment - 'No deal is better than a bad deal' and 'October 31st Do or Die'. Labour's 2017 manifesto committed them to a trade policy inconsistent with any deal including a customs union and a single market. Nothing has changed since Article 50 was voted for.

A PM and executive can only exercise power through Parliament. It can only do this if it has a majority. If it has no majority it has limited power and if it has lost control of its own party (which it has) it has no power to dictate events via Parliament whatsoever. What it can do is suspend Parliament hence the charge of ‘coup’ levied against Johnson.

Parliament is pushing back against this but can only do so if a majority of its members vote to do so. That is MPs we elect voting to check (or not) what they regard as an executive gone rogue. This may be unconventional but it is not unconstitutional nor is it undemocratic.

Suspending standing order 14 so that the executive lost control parliamentary business was ruled unconstiutional by the Rules Committee but the Speaker ignored them. There should not have been a vote, nor should there be one this his afternoon under SO 24, the rebel motion is to amend the WA to rule out no deal but there is no substantive motion before the house. The contrived majority supporting Remain is being allowed to change the settled will Parliament as enacted in the WA. The 'coup' charge is clearly false, prorogation is entirely lawful and in accordance with precedent.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

No. It's that demographic again. The EU haters eventually die out.

Final solution?

 

[west didsblue]

The electorate voted to Leave in a binding referendum - the simple refutation of all of this poisonous fluff

Another lie.
It was an advisory referendum the government decided to honour in spite of the proven irregularities.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Great Britain is truly exceptional in many historic respects and one is not cowering in front of bullies - just remind me who was travelling on Swedish railways during WW2, or who supplied the iron for the Ruhr armaments factories.

You sir are an embarrassment with your infantile, jingoistic nonsense.

 

[BobKowalski]

The leaked documents from the Alternative Arrangements commission set up to explore - well alternative arrangements for the backstop. TLDR. Nothing available that doesn’t require regulatory alignment as envisaged by the backstop.

https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/AA-N-Ireland-doc-lobby.pdf

 

[aguero93:20]

both Cameron replacements ramped up their Brexit commitment - 'No deal is better than a bad deal' and 'October 31st Do or Die'. Labour's 2017 manifesto committed them to a trade policy inconsistent with any deal including a customs union and a single market. Nothing has changed since Article 50 was voted for.

Suspending standing order 14 so that the executive lost control parliamentary business was ruled unconstiutional by the Rules Committee but the Speaker ignored them. There should not have been a vote, nor should there be one this his afternoon under SO 24, the rebel motion is to amend the WA to rule out no deal but there is no substantive motion before the house. The contrived majority supporting Remain is being allowed to change the settled will Parliament as enacted in the WA. The 'coup' charge is clearly false, prorogation is entirely lawful and in accordance with precedent.

When did parliament enact the WA?

 

[George Hannah]

So you really are saying because we have not been invaded since 1797 and the Swedes who were neutral sold Iron ore to our enemy we should be treated as an exceptional case? Really

No, and what the Fishguard invasion fiasco has to do with being conquered is baffling. The Swedes were overrun by the Germans and collaborated out of fear like Vichy France. No other European country apart from Portugal, our oldest ally, has successfully protected its democratic values, which is why we should not give them up. I really don't know what this talk of 'being treated as an exceptional case' is all about. Treated by who - the counterpart in a negotiation? We pursue our national interests and other countries pursue theirs - using the EU for that specific purpose - I repeat, their own national interests. We are exceptional and you should be proud of that.