Another new Brexit thread

[west didsblue]

Johnson & his ilk, are the desired outcome of Brexit, by the people who pay for it & for them. They have their own agenda.

But the point is, Johnson/Corbyn are now the main choice, & irrespective of Brexit, a lot of people don't want either, so voting could be varied.

Huge opportunity for the Lib Dems. All Swinson has to do is try and be normal.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

PMQs could be interesting today. Johnson's first one?

 

[Neville Kneville]

It’s funny and most wanted to vote with the govt but listening to some of the interviews this morning where they met Boris to seek assurances that he was making progress with the eu it seemed that Boris could not give them any assurance and actually on assurances on no deal they came out of the meeting thinking bollox this guy really is serious about no deal.

I have to say if that is true I would have done the same.

The worst thing about all of this is that even if we were to revoke & remain, the people behind it all have still made shitloads of money & got their right wing wanker mates into positions of power & influence. So they win, whatever. Their 'movement' has begun & more extremists will replace the moderates, same as the 'Momentum' movement in the Labour party.

 

[hammocity]

Direct democracy is something that needs to be consequential. With other words, either people can hold referendums at will or they can't, no such things as representative democracy calling a non-binding binding-referendum on a arbitrary whim. As to the soundness of the decission of the ellectorate, one must consider that "the public must be given the chance to learn from it's mistake's" in a perspective where the culture and tradition of direct democracy takes decades to thrive. Swiss style Direct democracy is certaintly not withought merrit and i would prefer it myself even if political apathy seems high nowadays, it must certaintly be noted that Brexit atleast has the positive of stimulating political debate in the UK and so it seems that direct democracy could prove positivly more "engaging" in the log run.

One of your sentiments I agree with is “political apathy seems high nowadays” A lot of people really don’t give two fucks, politicians should make major decisions and live or die by them. The whole Brexit issue has divided parties and the public. Some thought Brexit meant no more foreigners allowed into the UK. They had a vote like everyone else, fucking scary.

 

[BosnianBlue]

It's gotten to the point that as opinions have become so polarised, the options I can see being supported are rescinding A50 until a more suitable option can be found, supporting the WA, or leaving without a deal. At this point (I cannot stress this enough that I mean at THIS point) remaining should not be an option. We need to learn what "leave" option leave voters AND remainers would be supportive of.

Once we know which option has gained the most support (rescind/WA/No deal) we put that against remaining in the EU to the public, to see if those remainers who still feel we should leave as a result of respecting the first referendum result still feel as strongly that we should leave, and for leavers to either change their minds, or back the specifically chosen mandate. Since we're pretty much vote/election happy at the moment, two more would answer the question decisively.

To reiterate, in case I get misunderstood, i'm not against "remain" being an option to vote for, just not yet. I'd rather we found out which leave option remainers/leavers would collectively support/is the most popular from a common ground perspective, before putting the vote back to the people once more that defines our relationship with the EU.

That's pretty fair view.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Hardly surprising there are so many deluded, illogical opinions when you read the bullshit these publications are feeding people.

All over Britain ordinary, retired, comfortable people who built their futures on cheap post-war housing and final salary pension schemes are picking up The Mail and Express and fuming "why can't we just get on with it?", without the faintest understanding of what's going on beneath the surface.

 

[Saddleworth2]

But we will have a specific issue actually voted for.

If a majority in Parliament are willing to back no deal, we plan it & do it. If not we rule it out, forever.

Those parties against, can also promise a referendum & if in a majority, do it.

So if you are a life long tory and dont agree with no deal, how do you vote? Its not clean. Parties get voted for in an election against a full manifesto of policies. A confirmatory referendum would be far cleaner. Run it in conjunction with a GE would work too.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Huge opportunity for the Lib Dems. All Swinson has to do is try and be normal.

The current system is no longer fit for purpose imo & PR, is needed.

That leaves the door open to extremists but they are hijacking the main parties anyhow.

 

[west didsblue]

These people have been undermining Brexit for years, Boris wanted them to vote against his government so he could out them publicly and purge the party of Remainers before calling the election. He's played it perfectly from the perspective of a Leave voter and the election is the final piece of the jigsaw.

You are correct that this is Cummings plan all along. The next phase is to ensure the election takes place then there will be the dirtiest campaign in British history to smear Corbyn and all the opposition along with blatant lies about huge increases in spending aided and abetted by the right wing press, and allowed to happen by the BBC who, in their bid to be impartial, will not challenge the lies to the extent they should. Johnson will of course duck any interviews with anyone that won't give him an easy ride.

 

[Metal Biker]

So if you are a life long tory and dont agree with no deal, how do you vote? Its not clean. Parties get voted for in an election against a full manifesto of policies. A confirmatory referendum would be far cleaner. Run it in conjunction with a GE would work too.

It's the same conundrum presented to life long Labour voters who don't back remaining. How do we vote?

Party politics and party loyalties have sullied this entire debate.

But I agree with a confirmatory referendum. It's reached the stage where Parlaiment can't agree, so put the question back to the people but present all options first and whittle them down to just two; preferred leave method vs remaining.

 

[Neville Kneville]

So if you are a life long tory and dont agree with no deal, how do you vote? Its not clean. Parties get voted for in an election against a full manifesto of policies. A confirmatory referendum would be far cleaner. Run it in conjunction with a GE would work too.

Stop being a lifelong Tory, or Labour 'supporter' & use your brain instead.

 

[west didsblue]

Stop being a lifelong Tory, or Labour 'supporter' & use your brain instead.

And stop believing the Mail, Express, Sun and Telegraph as they do not represent the interests of the vast majority of the UK population in any way at all.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Finally!! Lol :-)

So perhaps you can now explain to me why you want to leave the EU, & on what terms.

BTW, I'm not a lefty. In political terms I'm ambidextrous. :-)

I'd sooner not list reasons again, already discussed in depth at someone's beck and call, you're assumptions that nobody
said anything are now refuted, and your question answered, plus another rant about everyone not agreeing being
nazi lovers is facile crap I'm sick of, in all honesty.

 

[Saddleworth2]

It's the same conundrum presented to life long Labour voters who don't back remaining. How do we vote?

Party politics and party loyalties have sullied this entire debate.

But I agree with a confirmatory referendum. It's reached the stage where Parlaiment can't agree, so put the question back to the people but present all options first and whittle them down to just two; preferred leave method vs remaining.

Its the obvious answer. If it doesn't happen its because the parties are still looking for political advantage rather than whats best for the country.

 

[M18CTID]

I'm sticking by my prediction of yesterday that we'll still be in the EU this time next year

 

[mcfc1632]

Yes. I am still not convinced it would happen, but it certainly improves the chances. We voted, as I’m sure you know, 62% to Remain. As part of Project Fear, we were told that we would be outwith the EU. They wouldn’t have us. Even with our fish, our oil, our agriculture, our water, our technology, our financial system, our renewable energy potential, our education system, our R&D. That much of our prosperity would go and the only way to stay in the EU would be to vote No.

We did and now the arguments for remaining are shat on, suddenly everything will actually be better.

Boris is a toffy nosed chancer. He is a liar, and worse than that, reckless. He knows that him and people like him will not carry the can. He is insulated by wealth. He tries to evoke Churchilian. Forgetting perhaps that it was Churchill who expoused the need for a European Union to prevent wars. He forgets a lot of things does Boris.

My hope is we recognise the slippery slope of not only what Brexit will mean, but wider, the realisation that from now on we will have Tory rule. Even if Labour were to get their act together they would need to dilute their programme to ensure victory to the point they would be no better than Tories.

Boris might be liked in England. Up here we see him as a twat. A toffy nosed twat. Arrogant, privelidged and aloof.

He is the perfect bogey twat. He embodies everything I hope a substantial majority detests. His sucking of the Trump mushroom cock, will increase the feeling of, we need to go.

Nothing is certain though, as we have a great number of people who love nothing better than tugging the forelock and bending the knee.

Boris is our Trump. And hopefully will be a trump card in helping us over the line. The only person who would have been as effective is Gove. The more loathsome nutters leading the Tories and us down the shitter, the better.

Sad, but we must utilise every political opportunity and Boris comes gold plated.

Thanks for the reply and I agree that recent events will have ratcheted up the support for Scotland leaving the UK - but...…………….

My contention - which was based on the indyref happening some 2-3 years after the UK had genuinely left the EU - is that when you set aside emotions and jingoism it is far more likely that Scotland would vote to remain in the UK with a larger majority than previously.

For me this is the more likely scenario because for that not to be the case it must mean that for the last 3 years Remainers must have been out and out lying (more than is obviously the case anyway).

Take, let's say, the top 10 arguments put forward by Remainers for the UK not to leave the EU and apply them to Scotland leaving the UK.

Just as a starter:

1. Importance of trade with the established key export markets

2. Importance to trade of being close to markets

3. BobK's favourite - ".....it is going to be very hard to unravel 40 years of increased integratio...….."

4. Free movement across the borders

5. The scope and size of the divorce bill - including share of national debt - that will need to be negotiated first

etc. etc.

If these are difficult in the context of the UK leaving the EU - they are utterly insurmountable in the context of Scotland Leaving the UK

Then there are other factors specific to the UK - Scotland relationship as well

And then Scotland would have to gain accession to the EU as a new entrant and comply to all the regulations and restrictions that come with that

So all these subjects and more will come to the awareness of the Scottish voting public. Don't forget this is an electorate that even in these peak times for support for Scotland to Leave the UK can hardly secure a majority.

No - when heads of Scottish voters comes to consider these issues rather than the nationalist fuelled rhetoric - there is IMO very little chance indeed that Scotland would vote to leave the Union - if the UK has already left the EU.

and.....

If the UK has left the EU and the apocalypse has not been quite the Tsunami that was forecast - I think that there is zero chance and....

If the UK has left the EU and there has been significant difficulties - I also think there is not much more than zero chance. This is because Scotland will be faced with pouring on top of the issues that would already be prevailing - the much more significant issues that would result from leaving the UK - a real double negative whammy.

Look on the bright side though - the ongoing events seem to evidence that the EU, through its acolytes, will successful force the abandonment of Brexit and this paves the way for a future Indyref against a backdrop where the decision can be driven by the heart.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

A soft brexit without a CU is also doable. My only issue with a backstop was how the people of NI thought about it, and the majority concensus is they're fine with it, so I am too.

All these questions you're asking me to solve, i've just said, put them all on the table and see which one wins out, slowly eliminating the most unpopular until we are left with one decisive choice vs remain.

But some of the options are not workable. What is the point of a referendum on something that can't be delivered. That just puts us back to 2016 where the nation voted for an easy deal where we hold all the cards.

I have a big issue with any referendum on this as it is just to technical and it becomes a contest between reality and bluster. The mess we are in is because bluster one last time and could win again. My support for a 2nd ref is driven by the fact it is a 50:50 chance that remain wins and that gets us out. Another vote to leave solves nothing.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Stop being a lifelong Tory, or Labour 'supporter' & use your brain instead.

No mate, thats a cheap answer. The same for Labour supporter that wants to vote to leave. Do they vote Tory? It ain't going to happen so a GE will never be a true reflection of what the country wants on this issue. Run both a confirmatory referendum and a GE on the same day would be cleanest.

 

[BosnianBlue]

They thought. They've done so out of their own self interests. How do their Conservative constituents, whom they elected to a seat in Parliament, feel about their decision?

Will they be given an opportunity to remove them from the HoC for their actions? What's this; "Opposition parties will not back an election".
They're acting in contrast to how many people feel and want their MP's to act. They are not representing the people, they are representing a minority viewpoint and telling the rest what they should think.

There are moments in history when you have to not give a fuck about what average Joe (and your voter) thinks and do the thing that is needed to do. That's how the real leaders think.

We saw it with City and holistic sacking of Mancini. Many were mad about it, but few years later, it didn't finish half bad.

 

[aguero93:20]

I'm sticking by my prediction of yesterday that we'll still be in the EU this time next year

Only if article 50 is revoked, EU budgets are due in May so there'll be no extensions past then.